advanced transparency trouble -please help

[cneofotistos]

hi, gang.

hm... these two pics are of a trasparent gel-shaded vault, covering a piece of machinery with pipes and cables in it.

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1005658691ytn.jpg

it's just a draft,
but as you can see -and probably know yourselves- changing the active layer (best renderer mode) also changes the way the glassy vault looks.
I prefer the one where the glass shows. that would be the one rendered with layer 3 (the layer holding the glass vault) as active. however, in a complex, multi-layered image, I haven't yet figured out which layer should be active when rendering.
also, in multi-layer images, I've noticed whole layers missing sometimes, when flatten layers is off (necessary, if I want to use transparency, right?)

please help.

to make things worse, I like the glass VERY much when it's in preview mode.... :confused:

my guess is that I'll have to begin merging and baking layers that satisfy me as ready, and leave the glass for the final render... er, it's a good way to get around this, but it's playing merry hell with my workflow

TIA, my friends

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> a thinking artist is no surprise <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Darksprite - The Art And Design Of Christos Neofotistos (http://www25.brinkster.com/darksprite/)

my renderosity gallery (http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=cneofotistos)

[Kathy]

Hey C!

"my guess is that I'll have to begin merging and baking layers that satisfy me as ready, and leave the glass for the final render... er, it's a good way to get around this, but it's playing merry hell with my workflow"

That's what I found also.

I created 2 pieces not too unlike yours (created a submarine window type thingy) and through trashing about 4 files a piece I realized that the merge was necessary. I was also working under your large number of layers/meshes problem. One had 7 layers and 29 objects. whoohoo.

[Zoid]

Hi Chris,

This is an interesting subject, and I've struggled with the same problem of having the preview gel mat. look better than the best render version. Then I discovered something in the gel material modifiers panel. There is a slider called "Gel shading" that is set to "2" by default. Try setting it down to "1" and see what happens.
http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1005677464sol.jpg

Also, when you are "best rendering" with the "flatten layers" button turned off in the render modifiers panel, you are only rendering the active layer. Which allows for some great effects. You can render each layer to your satisfaction, i.e. move lights and change their intensities, and then bake the layer. Then make another layer active, do some adjusting, and bake it. Then you can merge the baked layers. Two very important things though.
:b4: Never bake a layer that has transparency in it. It will ruin the effect.
:b4: To merege layers they must be next to each other. An active layer will merge into the layer that is to its left, so don't create a layer with transparency that is in between two that you want to merge.

Here is an example of a lighting effect that was done with a transparent layer and a baked layer. I used the shading enhancer brush with a stencil on the cube to simulate the caustic effect of the light coming through the glass sphere.
http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1005678676hqk.jpg

Hope this helps some :)

[Stonecutter]

Hey Zoid, great explanation! :cool:
I've only ever baked one layer, and I didn't like it...Your 'progressive' approach makes sense! :tu: :D :tu:
Thanx for dealing with my 'Fear Of Baking'!
:tu: :tu: :tu:

A later Edit: Zoid it is also interesting to set the 'Gel Shader' to '0', and play with the transparency and specularity graphs...

[PinheadPaul]

I'm glad this was brought up by cneofotistos!
I've been fighting with the same thing.
The baking was "burning" edges in layers I was using and I couldn't figure out why.
Thank you for the explanations.

Paul

[cneofotistos]

thanx, Zoid. this was informative.
yes, I've known about the gel shading options and I regularly play with them, as well as the specularity graph (thanx Michael). I also know how layers merge.

what I didn't know is that you are just best rendering the active layer when "all layers" is off, because the rest of the image did appear kind of rendered as well. now THAT explains it all, thanks a million Zoid.


:tu:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> a thinking artist is no surprise <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Darksprite - The Art And Design Of Christos Neofotistos (http://www25.brinkster.com/darksprite/)

my renderosity gallery (http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=cneofotistos)

[aurick]

Very interesting thread going here, and lots of great information!

The only thing that I could add would be that you can play around with the specularity and reflectivity graphs in your material settings to get it looking just right. Go to the layer with the transparent object, set to Best Render, then with it still in that mode start modifying the graphs. Each change will render immediately in best render mode.

The technique takes a few minutes, depending on your computer speed, render settings, and file complexity, but it will let you get just the right look.

[Stonecutter]

Thank you Aurick, for the best-render testing method. That was the last piece of the puzzle re: the single layer rendering, and how it could be very useful.
Definitely a very useful thread, and :tu: to Christo for starting it!

[Zoid]

Thanks Aurick and Stonecutter,

I always forget about those graphs. They really can take things to another level. Here's another excercise with 3 layers. I accidentally /on purpose put the little gel shader globes on a layer that was baked to show the artifacting.They kind of look like Christmas ornaments. The big urn is on its own layer that wasn't baked.
http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1005694103gwh.jpg

[Tag]

There's so many great tips on this thread, I just had to mark it.
I've merged layers when I've had a transparent object with pretty good results. I've also rendered the layers one at a time with the best render setting, and seemed to get pretty good results. I need to remember to play around with the graphs some time when dealing with transparency, great tip.
Also Zoid, the little globes with the artifacting look just like the gems that people put in aquariums and planters. Very nice effect.

[cneofotistos]

"Also, when you are "best rendering" with the "flatten layers" button turned off in the render modifiers panel, you are only rendering the active layer. Which allows for some great effects. You can render each layer to your satisfaction, i.e. move lights and change their intensities, and then bake the layer. Then make another layer active, do some adjusting, and bake it. Then you can merge the baked layers."

Zoid, your reply shed light on something that COMPLETELY eluded me.

I wish to express my gratitude once more. and here's my latest render of the same pic, after I've played the way Zoid taught me;

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1005748638ony.jpg

a hell of a lot better!

P.S. all three of your pics above could easily have been taken from the manual of 3DstudioMax, my friend -really welldone.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> er...what is my gender again? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Zoid]

Chris, You have the beginnings of something that's going to be truly spectacular. I'm glad that my tip works for you and helps you reduce your frustrations. I'm very flattered by your comments about my images and I hope Pixologic is also, it's a reflection of how good their product is.

On the subject of gender confusion, here's something that my three year old son said to my wife last week, "Mommy, are you a boy or a squirrel?" :rolleyes:

[cneofotistos]

godsdamn, Zoid! may I use this as my quote from now on?
I'm serious!

(by the way, which one is your wife?)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Mommy, are you a boy or a squirrel? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<A HREF="http://www25.brinkster.com/darksprite/" TARGET=_blank>Darksprite - The Art And Design Of Christos

Neofotistos</A>

my renderosity gallery (http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=cneofotistos)

[Zoid]

Ha Ha Chris, I don't mind if you use it. It makes me smile when I see it. This I know for sure, my wife is not a boy and her occasional squirrelyness only makes her more lovable. Kids do say the darnedest things :D