Return of the 80's Troll

[monstermaker]

Hi I started a thread a long time ago making a model of this troll character that I designed back in the 80's, probably before most of you were born, I had trouble with the model doing weird stuff when I saved it so I stopped. Well I figured out what the trouble was ,thanks Matthew, and started playing with it again. It is far from finished at this point I haven't even done the displacement for it yet. I did a quick animation in LWV9 to see if the UV, color,morph and bump maps worked. Here are a few frames from the animation I thought you might get a kick out of. Since it's just about Halloween I thought I should post something. I used ZB to re-sculpt the base mesh and to create the color and bump maps. trollcomp.jpg

[Bimm the Stone]

Man, that looks really good.

P.s. At that time I was about 4-13...getting scared by the Gremlins;)

[bicc39]

great job!!!!
Looks like a congressman in my area.
Cool how you laid it on Matthew in case nobody like it:D

[godlike27]

Haha cool! Kinda looks like Shrek (hope you don't mind the comparison).

[Jason Belec]

I like him! Got 'tude!! ;)

[monstermaker]

bicc39, I wasn't trying to lay anything on Matthew. He figured out what my problem was and helped me out greatly.
godlike27, I think he looks kinda of like Shrek too or should I say Shrek looks like him as I designed this 20 years before Shrek came out, and as a matter of fact the guy who designed Shrek worked for me 20 years ago at the time I did the animatronic version of this guy.

[womball]

Not what I was expecting! I was thinking of those trolls with the colorful hair that stuck up! And they could always be put on a pencil for some odd reason.

[godlike27]

Yes I should have said Shrek looks like him.
By the way monstermaker, in Boston I bought a book "Inside Men In Black" (Brad Munson) there are some nice images by you, are they all Photoshop? (The Lost Aliens of Rick Baker).

[wenna]

Glad to see you are bringing him back! Outstanding!!

[andreseloy]

love the expressions, the skin and also the character.
Monstermaker=Mastermaker!
Thanks for this!
Andreseloy

[Mr.Monster]

Hey Monstermaker, Great post! Nice range of expression, and a little motion blur too! How'd you do that???

Last one one the bottom right has a hint of "London after Midnight" to it, which is cool!
Great to see you kept working on this guy:D

I remember the original sculpt by the way, and it was one of my favorites back in the day:tu: I was looking at the unfinished version a while back and wondering why you never finished him. Glad to see him done, and thensome.


Very cool that you've kept pusing forward, and reached the point where you can animate your charactor. That's where the real fun begins, I would think:)

You continue to inspire....

~B.W.

[stumpf]

I like him, much soul in his face.

Cheers

Ralf Stumpf

[alexleia]

amazing Rick!
Alex Oliver

[Tartan]

Hey MM,

Yah he and Shrek are cousins! But I think I can assure you that yours is his own man errrr ogre. Wonderful range of expression here:tu: BTW there are more of us older farts hanging around here than you might expect! Someone light a match :D I would like to see him in a scene of some kind but will content myself with the warmth and feeling this character inspires. He is a lot more friendly looking than my old Ogre Shadowknight in Everquest. 5 stars.. damn that must get redundant :lol:

[Bas Mazur]

Hmmm, the 80's, old enough to remember. What about the 60's, no computers and 3D-software, sculpting with sand or clay :-) I remember the smell of our radio and TV and the black ink we had to write with. Also the teacher who was looking like your troll, realy he did. We called him mr. Porc, because of his nose. Following that holes we could see what he was thinking.

[dozogovi]

hey monstermaker i am not sure if you remember me. but I met you at the last zbrush user group meeting I was the one who I told my brother that I met you and her freaking damn near pissed his pants. I must be honest iI didnt know the extent of your career when I met you. I just knew you made some bad ass **** back in the day but I didnt know the extent of it. Anyways long story short I was wondering if I could ask you a favor. My younger brother is a huge huge fan of Werewolf the tv show has bootlegs of the old show and everything.
Even to this day he goes on about how amazing that monster looked.I was wondering if you wouldnt mind maybe posting some pictures of that old stuff.I am sorry for being rude I know zbrush central probably isnt the time and place for such a request.But as long as you are showing old cool stuff from the past and considering the time of year i was hoping you wouldnt mind.

[TrapDoor]

I think he looks kinda of like Shrek too or should I say Shrek looks like him as I designed this 20 years before Shrek came out, and as a matter of fact the guy who designed Shrek worked for me 20 years ago at the time I did the animatronic version of this guy. MM

Hi RIck,

Man that's a bit mean, trying to take someone else's credit like that. All the people who worked with you brought their own talents into studios like yours. The studio takes the credit while they work there but you should let go once they move on. Heck, now we may get people accusing you of stealing their creations while they were working for you!

Saddned to hear this from such a great man.

TD

[Mr.Monster]

Trapdoor,

Easy big fella,

I don't think he meant it that way at all. It certainly didn't sound that way to me.
I think it was just a innocent comment on simularity, which is mild and distant...actually.
He was only commenting on the timeline of which came first. That how I read it.

Easy goes it...

[Atwooki]

Brilliant texturing and rendering Rick - Great!
Ears and fingers look a little too 'human' and the flaps(webbing?) between the fingers could be flattened quite a bit; but Gorgeous character :tu::tu:

Ah! there's Brian also ;) two 'monster-makers' on one thread ;) hehe!

Chris B

[monstermaker]

Gee trapdoor,sorry if it sounded like I was trying to take credit away from the guy who designed Shrek. godlike 27 said that it reminded him of Shrek. I was just trying to point out that I did this guy originally 20 years before Shrek came out. Yes it is true that many times in a big make-up effects company many artists contribute to a design. that wasn't the case with this character's head. It was a personal project that I designed and did the sculpture myself. Yes there are some similarities but there are also lots of differences. I find that many times people have to compare a design to something that they know,they have to put a name on it. I remember going to a Halloween party as a werewolf the year that Planet of the Apes came out. I can't tell you how many people came up to me and said cool Planet of the Apes make-up. Anyways ,I was not trying to take any credit away from what I think is a wonderful design,and I'm sorry that it read that way to you.

[TrapDoor]

Hi Rick,

You know, it still sounds as if you are sticking to what you said in your original post. This industry, not you personally, is full of people trying to take other peoples credit - that's where I am coming from and it sucks.

TD

[Tartan]

enough said on that and edited. Once again MM great piece of work:tu:

[TrapDoor]

Hi Tarten,

The last thing that I want to do is to attack anyone on a personal level and I said that in my last post. I have nothing but respect for good work and Rick's stuff is way up there. I dont know Rick on a personal level, only his work. I am not a giant in this industry and therefor it is easy to sweep my comments under the rug.The point I am making is that if I tried to claim that I came up a character similar to Shrek or Micky Mouse way before the people credited with the design, then I would be laughed out of court - especially if it was 20 or 50 years after the fact. On the other hand if a big studio decided to do the same then it appears to have a lot more clout to be taken seriously. These problems are not just in the movie industry - it's everywhere how do you take on the like of Microsoft or IBM when they decide something was theirs?

Peace to All,

TD

[lemonnado]

Please continue your dispute via PM if necessary. Others try to enjoy the thread. Stay on topic please.
Lemo

[Patton]

I'm with Lemo, stay on topic!! (plus I have seen the 20 year old pictures,proof)

[Mr.Monster]

Now that that's finished...(thanks Lemo and Scott), and we're back...

Hi Rick, it's been a long time since I've seen you :) , hope all is well.
I have a genuine question...or two.

As I mentioned before, great work. I am a bit troll1sweet spots.jpg curious, is this the same model you posted previously? It seems a little bit, (tamer?), if that is the right word for it.

Here it is again, with all the sweet-spots highlighted.
Q:1). Did you use the "Deco" brush and just hand "snoodle" all the cool little details?

Q:2). For some of the pores, did you make different custom alphas and overlap them with varying degrees of zsub intensity? (Looks real).

(Oh, and how did you do the motion blur on your montage, in
Lightwave?)

I'd appreciate any feedback. Great work.

"Happy Halloween from Prague"
~BW

[ilusiondigital]

Hey Rick you are terrible. A monster for sure. This is great, but can you upload your animation??? ;)


A great work as usual.

[lemonnado]

If Rick has a movie he would like to share then I can host it for a few weeks.
I like that fellow. He has quite a bandwidth as character. Creepy, funny, sweet, horrible. I can see animators going nuts with that foundation.
Cheers
Lemo

[LIQUIDSNEEK]

hi,i must say this is a freakin cool character with freakin cool expressions
and i dont know who rick baker is except from this forum where he post
inspiring pieces of work,thanks man :D :tu: :D ;) :confused: :tu: :cool:

ps i drew a character similar to shrek and your one when i was five
.so where do i collect:lol: {these dam satelites}:td:

[javierloredo]

Hey Rick!

Beautiful art work as always. Very inspiring too!
Have a nice day!

Javier Loredo.

[SNARK]

MonsterMaker doesn't need to take anyone's credit and neither does his former employee. It is not uncommon for colleagues to influence one another. MM and his former employee have also been friends for decades. Troll and Shrek are their own, unique characters. MM is correct when he notes how some people are more comfortable comparing a new design to an old rather than appreciate the new design for what it is: 'new'. Just because they drank from the same well doesn't mean anyone took anything.


~S.~

[lemonnado]

Funny, the maquette looks like the familly guy with a shrek mask. Ha!
Lemo

[SS810]

WOW !!

This looks fantastic MM !

The skin material looks superb, and I love the way his lips and nails catch the light. And the viens in his hands are so subtle, . .it's really beautiful stuff.

You know, . . the potential is so huge now. I can just imagine the stuff you can do, . .a full werewolf transformation in one unedited shot, . an ape going from 'kiss' to 'fear grin' in one movement. Oh, .and I remember my favorite thing that you've done, 'Harry' (from the Hendersons). The detail you put into that sculpt, and the animation of that mask was perfection !!

I think we're only one step away from that now !
Realtime viewport rendering of hair is just around the corner !
you'll be in your element :D

Must be an exciting time to be an FX man !

[Ashat]

woah, monster baker, u are best!;)

[roger]

As always Rick, your work is outstanding! :tu:

-R

[yolao]

wonderful work Rick, can you please show your texture maps and also the animation..

thanks

[punchatz]

I love this guy! Its going to sound a little fanboyish Rick, but that character has been one of my all time favorite designs since I saw you sculpting it on a TV prime time news special in the early 80s. I remember seeing the waldo rig you had built for it(was it pouring water back and forth?) and a few years later in cinefx. I studied that pic as if it was the Mona Lisa, because for me it was!
While I studied every nook and cranny of your work since the 73 Famous Monsters magazine this Troll was a HUGE influence on me. I always wanted to see him finished, now if I am lucky I will!! Now if I could talk you into doing the night skies aliens so I could finally find out what they looked like! Excuse my geek moment Rick.LOL.

5 stars from me!

Speaking of the 73 Famous Monsters, I dug up my cover-less version and scanned this pic. Cover-less because it got worn out reading it over and over!
Rick73.jpg

[Mr.Monster]

Greg,

I remember this photo too! So cool that you still have it!
I saved every photo I ever found on Rick from back then, and even showed them to him one day at the shop, so your not alone in "Squidsville". Heck, I even had him sign the "Starlog" with him and his "Incredible Melting Man" stuff on the cover. I was like 14 years old too at the time. I think it was 1977, and he was very encouraging and nice to the little BW too. Wow!

He was then, and still is "The Man".

Remember the one of him holding a little bust of Lon Chaney in "London after Midnight", with his sculpting tool in hand? That was one of several that did it for me! I remember thinking, " How did he sculpt that!?"

Thanks alot for sharing this photo. Reminds me of the feeling I had back then about it all. Too cool!

Man, those were the days!

Cheers Greg,
~BW

[Dickie]

Rick, the life you put into the troll is creepy! I 'm saving this image for expression reference. I still haven't gotten Modo yet, but I shall.

Punchatz: Damn, that pic brings back memories. Check out the old Mixmaster on the second shelf. I used to use one of those to blend my foam latex back in the '80s...:D

Rick never got to see my makeup work back then , but Tom Savini did, back in '83 and when I ran into him 16 years later, he still remembered this foam latex human heart I made. He was teaching me to rig it up for blood and air bladders to make it beat. I'd love to get Savini into Z-Brush. Hmmmm...maybe it's time for a phone call...:D

Dickie

[voodoomonkey]

Man do I feel old,
If you remember this picture or better yet have this in your collection... well....
Those were the DAMN good old days for sure and yes that Cinefex has had quite an impact on all of us.
I too remember that interview on TV... got to try and find that.
You can find anything on Internet now in days.
I was trying to remember the last time I was really Wowed at the movies.
I don't remember the last time I got up and cheered.
I was in the hospital the first time I saw, "An American Werewolf in London".
The good old PayTV days... remember when having Cable was so chic! Ha!
The dream sequence where he's lying on the hospital bed in the middle of the Forrest, then opens his eyes and growls. Scared the crap out of me!
I still remember the nurses in the hospital running to my bed side cause my heart monitor sky rocketed. Ahhh good times.
It was so much simpler back then...
BTW Dickie, it was great hanging out with you guys in LA.
Hopefully we'll be doing much more of that in the future.
And I too had my squid moment... I had Rick sign my copy of Octaman.
Mixed feelings about it though, got Rick on a bad day.
That's part of life though, your idols have bad days too.
It's funny, I actually avoided going to talk to him at the User group meeting.
I guess subconsciously or consciously, you know... avoid pain.
I love this piece, I too studied that picture for hours.
I clearly remember spotting it in the corner over at Bob Burns house and made a B line for it, kind of like seeing an old friend. I must have starred at it for 20 mins...
Life was so much simpler back then...
Just some guys in their garage having fun, no real responsibilities.
No kids, no wife, no real job! Ha, ha, ha!Thanks for posting that great pic and sorry Rick for Hijacking your post for my squid moment.
Just had a flood of awesome memories from that picture, it's the simple things in life that bring us joy.
Cheers
Cesar Dacol Jr.
Aka, The Voodoo Monkey

BTW, Anyone else remember that great ET interview where Rick did himself up in grease paint.
I think it was London after midnight.
I'd love to see that one again.
oct_monster_internet.jpg (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:zb_insimg%28%2742705%27,%27oct_monster_intern et.jpg%27,1,0%29)

[Frenchy Pilou]

...has baby's face attitudes :D

[monstermaker]

Hey thanks everyone.I've been out of town and away from the internet since last Fri. this is the first chance I've had to check in. I'll answer your questions when I get back. thanks for your comments

[monstermaker]

Ok I'm back to my computer.
Brian aka mr.monster I 'll try and answer some of your questions.

Yes it is the same mesh that I used for the earlier post of this character but with no fancy sculpting. I was saving that version at a high level and it screwed up the model , so I started again at level 1. No those places that you pointed out were not the Deco brush I'm not a big fan of it. I just use the simple brush usually with alpha 36 and adjust the draw and Z depths. I find that I can control it better than I can control the deco brush. Yes to the question of multiple custom alphas. Just simple white dots on a black BG.
The motion blur is just checking the box in the camera properties panel in LW.
I am planning on doing a more textured version with displacement maps for animation but it will have to wait until after Halloween, though I am kind of liking the not so over sculpted version.
Why the heck are you living in Prague?
I just sent the animation to Lemo and hopefully he will be able to post a link to it. Before you look at it I have to say that it is not that great it was mainly to see if my morph,bump and color maps were working. I did it without a plan and just went from one pose to another without much thought. There are no pauses just a lot of aimless moving around. I have not finessed the timing at all .There is basically no rig either, except for a few bones in the hands which are separate objects from the body . The head, eyes ,teeth, and shoulders are just moving from their pivot points which I think will be obvious when you look at the animation. So in other words please don't be too hard on me as it was a quick test.
Greg thanks for posting the photo of me young to show how much I have aged.
Cesar thanks for posting the crappy octoman photo to show that I have gotten a little better over he years.
Again thanks everyone for your comments

[LittleDedder]

Hey Rick,

I really love this character. Can't weight to see the animation. It is also interesting that you went back to re-visit some old work.

I am also wounder if you plan to do something a little more Alain or monstrous soon?

Little D.

[voodoomonkey]

Hey Rick.
You're very welcome.
It's comforting to guy like me to know that you too began very humbly.;)
Not all of us can be born into the talent jackpot.
Some of us schleps have to works our butts off.
That's what I always liked about your work.
Every year there was progression, you never settled.
I think that's the difference... if you know what I mean.:)
Cheers
Cesar Dacol Jr.
Aka, The Voodoo Monkey

[womball]

what's this talent thing your talking about? I like the octopus, its even better because its a mutated manopus hybrid.

And more importantly you had a mullet, Rick?

[lemonnado]

Here is Monstermakers Troll animated. 14MB on a slow server.

www.onesmall.com/stuff/trollimation.mov

Enjoy and thanks Monstermaker for sharing it!

Cheers
Lemo

[LittleDedder]

Great stuff.

The character has really clean deformation..

Little D.

[TrapDoor]

Hi Rick,

Looks pretty good for a rough. Did you animate in LW?

TD

[punchatz]

Fun stuff, There is a little "Harry" (as in Harry and the Hendersons) in him. Its the eye brows at the end.

Its great to see this progression to movement Rick, cant wait to see where this goes!

Greg

[Mr.Monster]

Rick,

Thanks for sharing the test. You've come along way pretty quick. You've worked hard at it and the rewards are showing.
Pretty good test I'd say. No disclaimers necessary for a test. Shows a lot of range of expression.

A big thanks also for taking time with in-depth answers to my plethora of texture questions. I will definately give them a try.

I thinks this version seems a little sweeter perhaps. Which is nice.
The other version just brought back memories and was a nice piece.

I'll PM you about Prague sometime...

Thanks again,
~Brian
PS. Lemonado, thanks for the animation link!

[Tim Leydecker]

When it´s about time to do the dishes and admit
who - again - just hurled the garbage out of the
kitchen window.

"Priceless acting talent you´ve gotten yourself, Sir".

Cheers

tim

[Shmisaac]

Looks like an Ogre to me