is drawing essential for zbrush?

[mantodea]

i've noticed that most of people who post best work (in my oppinion) here are very good in drawing. so my question is like the name of topic says it self, do you need to be very good in drawing to work good in zbrush?

[Erklaerbar]

no, of course not ;) The point is not so much that these people can draw well as rather the fact that they know what theyre doing. People that know how to paint have obviously a developed sense to capture the relevant details of reality. Thats what makes their sculpting work look great too. But the techniques are completely different.

[javierloredo]

Drawing and Sculpting are different mediums! They relate to each other... When you draw the human body, you look for form. When you sculpting here in zbrush, you start by looking for the form of what your sculpting. It's also very good to know how to draw, and the reason why is because if you can draw your own reference, it will help a lot with whatever you want to sculpt. So... I think it's very important to know how to draw. It's not necessary for some people, but it will be very useful at the end.

Check some of the graduates from VFS, and look at their modeling reels. You will see their concept drawings which I think all of them can draw beautiful.

This is my opinion! :)

Javier Loredo

[Andrew RaZ]

"is drawing essential for zbrush?"

absolutely.

drawing teaches you to notice things. the better you are at noticing things, the better you will be at reproducing them.

[KrakenCMT]

Perception is the most important attribute whether you are drawing or sculpting. I think most people who know how to sculpt really well, also know how to draw at least fairly decently. I think it really goes hand in hand.

I don't know of any outstanding sculptors, digital or otherwise, that can't draw decently.

To directly answer the question, no. To do good work in ZBrush you do not need to draw really well, but to do GREAT work, I think it's essential.

[Frenchy Pilou]

Have fun Zbrushing :cool:

[Prayer]

i dont agre on some points

i cant draw at all but i can use Zbrush pritty good.
i also do some home clay sculptures that dont turn out bad.

but if you give me a pen and paper i cant draw any thing its all crap.

i can translate geomaty i see to 3d fine but i cant translate it thrue pen and paper simply because your facking depth with pen and paper by drawing shadows.

[mantodea]

thanks for all the replies. i'm not really bad (nor really good obviously :) in drawing but my characters on paper always lacked of details and shading. i'm just starting with zbrush so i hope that my models will be much better. i would like to do something like that maddam guy :) btw, why do people start with base mash from some other program? why not do everything in zbrush?
pz

[ZyphonGale]

Drawing is just one way to express an idea. IMO its not totaly essential if you can use another way. like sculpting with clay or modeling with other things....like Legos for instance....of corse legos have almost no detail with smaller works. That is where a keen eye for detail comes in handy. many designers don't need to draw to see what they need to see to be able to do great work. Its all in the eyes. If you can relate it to some events in life (or movies and other entertaining media) it makes it easier to realise your work.

[KrakenCMT]

btw, why do people start with base mash from some other program? why not do everything in zbrush?
pz

Topology in easier to control in other software packages because of the modeling tools involved. Also with proper topology, you have less trouble posing/animating your figures. I'm one to talk though, cuz I have trouble with that stuff anyway! :)

[lemonnado]

What helps more than drawing is experience in make up and masks. That allows control over the skin texture like nothing else. Look at stuff from Monstermaker or Patton. There you got two pro's who make their work shine with their effects knowledge. And of course.... when you can draw you can nicely sketch a scene before you sink 3d time into it and if you can sculpt... then your models look better.

Cheers
Lemo

[Angelstein]

I create from scratch in Zbrush, mantodea. The end result looks the same to me, but outside of Zbrush I'm sure my meshes might cause problems in other apps, I dunno to be honest, i'm scared stiff of other 3D apps :eek:

Drawing is going to help your basic sculpting a great deal, but you may have a more creative mind than someone who simply has great drawing skills. Some of the best artist can't even draw! In Zbrush you may discover your own unique technique, or be great with colour/texturing etc, it's all down to creativity and originality more than simply drawing ability i'd say.

[Ron Harris]

well I have talked to alot of past zbrush artists on this before in a chat room a few times....I was suprised to find that alot of our zbrush artists didnt draw as much or as well as I thought they would...


I like to draw and always have....whether I am any good...hmmm....I dunno...I try to improve and if it doesn't look right, well that is ok too....the love of drawing is the key for me....

I don't think it is essential for zbrush, but I am sure it doesn't hurt.

I think the real life sculptors on the forum have commented that it is an easy transition to zbrushing...

Practice in any area will help you, though. Paying attention to the little things, wrinkles in clothing, different shades in a person's skin, lighting a subject, expressions on faces and which muscles are affected, scenery and setting a scene, basic anatomy, (all of these things which I still have to desperately work on)....the imperfections in everybody's appearance which gives them character....those are a few of the things that come to mind that will help in zbrushing or probably any other 3d modeling situation/app...

but simply, yes, I think being able to draw good helps the artist a bit more...

Would loved to have seen Giger or DaVinci with Zbrush for sure :))))))

just my itty bitty 2 cents worth

Ron

[garycrump]

Drawing should be mandatory for all artists it is the simplest form of expression their is next to speech. But pre bulit blocks can be manipulated and called art. So no it is not essential only desired in my opinion.

[ZyphonGale]

Drawing should be mandatory for all artists it is the simplest form of expression their is next to speech. . . Actually that is just an opinion. Some people find sculpting easier then drawing. Some have a reason they can't draw effectivly. Like me. I have unsteady hands and when I draw I can never copy a line the way I did before. I also press to hard on the pen/pencil. I prefer to use a more 'easy to fix' way to work. my sketches usualy just turn out to be covered in eraser marks and impossible to identify :lol:

ctrl + z is my best friend :cool:

[mantodea]

it's really nice to see all this answers. the main reason why i thought that drawing is essential is because of all those characters that i've seen here, who have tons of wrinkles, scars, etc. and by looking them i figure out that in zbrush you need to draw them all, one by one on your character. one more question. what is the "best" material to use in real sculpting? i only know for clay, and i'm interesting what material is good for sculpting, let's say high detailed faces for example? one more time thanks for all the answers.
pz

[Elixir]

IMHO the key to ANYTHING artistic (sculpting, painting) is looking. Really looking.

I can't remember whether it was Manet speaking of Monet or vice versa, but what was said is what is important.

I think the quote goes:

"Monet is just an eye... but WHAT an eye!"

[PixelMachine]

The esential thing is to have great perception abillities, the rest of it is just a matter of practice and technique. You must be able to see the forms in 3d space either if you're painting or sculpting. Painting however can be a little more difficult, since you have to translate the 3d form onto a 2d plane, while in sculpting you can concentrate more on the form itself, rather than trying to translate it onto a plane. Contour and shading are the most important technical abilities in drawing (and these can be achivied through practice). However, you must know what you're doing in both cases, as some of you just said. The rest is hard work and practice.

[Prayer]

it's really nice to see all this answers. the main reason why i thought that drawing is essential is because of all those characters that i've seen here, who have tons of wrinkles, scars, etc. and by looking them i figure out that in zbrush you need to draw them all, one by one on your character. one more question. what is the "best" material to use in real sculpting? i only know for clay, and i'm interesting what material is good for sculpting, let's say high detailed faces for example? one more time thanks for all the answers.
pz
i had the same question when i wanted to practise with real material.p

obviusly the most artists favorite tool is SUPER SCULPTY.

but its to bad you cant realy find it here in the netherlands :(

what i use is pollyster clay dryng on air i wish i had non dryng on air but it seams very hard to find.

what i use now works good but hase some draw backs i do advise you not to buy a big sack of clay (it looks tempting because of the amount) but you cant realy do alot of detail with it.
also dont sculpt real size or big start small its easyr.

[kramskoi]

Good Drawing, Painting, Scuplting or Digital work is all, in the end, just good seeing. The rest is just different tools. Most people who are very good at drawing can easily move to other methods because of the training in seeing things correctly and in there proper relationship to the whole. Learning to draw (on paper that is) is also easier because you dont have the limitations of processors and memory and computers that don't do what they're supposed to. Its also damn fun.... Yes I do teach traditional drawing and painting but the priciples apply to any medium.

[AhOld]

I am new in Zbrushing. My opinion is: When you draw you can`t probe your drawings in 3D and see if it looks real with proper proportions, forms, detailes. In Zbrush you can do this!!!. You can experiment with forms, with proportions, colors, shadows etc. in the end it can help you to learn how to percept things in 3D and than you gain ability to "see" before you draw. :)
...I think. By the way...I am amazed what you are doing here int this world of reality :).

[Argyll9846]

As long as you get a good result sculpting who cares if you can draw or not? Drawing does teach you to look at things in detail but that alone doesn't give you talent to do anything else but observe. As Jason (of Cannedmushrooms fame) says, it takes 'practice, practice, practice' to get good at modelling in Zbrush. So I'd say don't get too hung up on drawing as being necessary to do anything good in Zbrush - just practice different techniques and work out what's the best method for you.

[mantodea]

if you can't find that material in netherlands i sure will not find it here :) i guess i'll try to do something with clay. i hope in near future you will see something of my work here :) right now i'm really occupied with learning (faculty). anyone else have problem with finding time in life?:) one more time i'm really glad that you all take time to answer me.


p.s. AhOld

"By the way..I am amazed what you are doing here int this world of reality :)"

i'm not sure that i understood that :) if it was pointed to me.

[Dan-Burke]

I'd say that being good at drawing will help you a lot, but not being good at drawing can hurt you if your sculpts have the same mistakes your drawings would have, because a drawing is just a reflection of what you understand in your head and what you are able to observe and retain. It's hard to retain reality all at once, so learning to draw over a period of time sorta cements all in, you know? We know that with Z-Brush, the sky is the limit...so you need a solid foundation or you may end up putting all kinds of crazy cool detail into something with messed up anatomy or wack proportions.

An expert modeler can still make basic mistakes with anatomy, form and proportion which might have been worked out by someone who drew 2D for 10 years before touching a 3D program.

Without these skills, it's just more to learn, which is why when you look at various models and wireframes on public forums, you can spot the experts and the noobs and everyone in between, even if they all have a working knowledge of their 3D program(s).

So, whether one decides to draw or just stick to the 3D world (or both), it's important to learn the basics, and it does show through in one's work.

[AhOld]

My admiration was pointed to all arts, and artists, and who vants to learn. I dont know if you should know to draw. But I know you should be passionate at it and do it. So happy modelling, drawing, claying, playing.

[Art-Machine]

I think i can summarize what everyone said so far into one simple answer :

You don't need to be an illustrator to be a good ZBrusher, but every extra medium you learn will make it stronger.

[panstar]

personaly, I don't think it matters if you can draw or not, to use ZB. But an eye for detail, and a perception to work in 3D. Actually thats not true, because I have seen some great work in this forum from people who don't use ZB for modeling, just Illustration. So I gues it's what you want ZB to do for you.

Befor the age of Digital art, I had reasonably good traditional skills in painting and illustration. But then (Must be nearly 20 years ago) I went and brought an Amiga 500, which came with a program called DPaint, and my traditanal skills got neglected, 5 years down the line I tried to go back to to pen and paper and the skills wern't there. I'm sure if I had persisted they would have returned, but digital was offering far more excitment.


But now that I have a Wacom, and ZB I am finding that my traditional skills are coming back and certainly modeling is helping that as I'm studying form and details again.

I do nock out concept sketches, but they are so rougth, they are crap. So Digital still wins over and my drawing skills still are not what they used to be. But my mind still has the stong ability to create, and ZB is ace for freestyle results. So don't worry, just creat. I hope this makes some sense:D;)

[doron]

IMHO - sculpting and drawing, either digital or real, are coming from the same area of the brain. (and i suspect music to :) )

[willbrown1]

When I've observed 3D artist/sculptors's websites, the quality of the 2D traditional art posted usually reveals the artist's overall skill level. Usually, fine draughtmanship equates into good sculpture and concept art, too. Sculpting and drawing require the exact same discipline; observation, measurement, an understanding of form, proportional relationships are required for both.

Conversely bad at 2D usually equates to bad at 3D.

My recommendation:
SHARPEN YOUR PENCILS, DRAW A LOT!... YOU'RE COMPETITION IS FIERCE; THEIR'S ARE ALREADY SHARP!

BTW drawing is one of the best ways to get into a good mood. It's been PROVEN that artists enter into an altered state when drawing.

GREAT BOOK: DRAWING FROM THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE BRAIN!

Even if you suck at drawing this book will give you the tools to transform your drawing ability practically overnight. Do the exercises and watch how quickly your work improves!

Drawing allows an artist to gain access to actual phenomena, disconnecting verbal interpretation, allowing one to see what is really before ones eyes. Without study, no work of merit can be produced!

:D

[ciroman]

Noooooo! im blind!!!

this page is very cool: www.conceptart.org go to their forums and look for techniques

[jlamothe]

That was a violent post for my eyes!!!

I believe that having the ability to draw is a very important aspect of any medium. It's not "knowing" how to draw but having the ability is whats important. Having the ability opens the door to learning the many mediums that the artist is "confronted with".

I do concept art and illustration. I have been drawing for a very long time. Im glad that i have learned this wonderful core skill.

Im also a professional photo-editor. If it weren't for my ability to draw, I wouldn't be good at photo-editing. Because drawing is at the core of any art medium or style, it becomes important to learn it.

I have seen photo-editors that lack the ability to draw and when you look at their work, it doesn't seem natural and realistic. It's the same for ZBrush. Though it is sculpting, you still have to deal with form and structure. If you "know" these things, that's good... If you have the ability to work and identify form, it's much better. It is something that can be learned but if you don't practice it "physically"..... well it won't have that special touch that artists have.

P.S never look down on drawing. It's how we start any project. Wether it be graphic design to photo-editing to sculpting it always starts at the drawing table.

[Frenchy Pilou]

...is some crazzy too (http://www.tsofa.com/forum/index.php) :cool:

Ps @Willbrown : green text on grey background is some illisible unreadable ;)

[furrykef]

My own two cents: drawing is not essential for sculpting or 3D modeling. Being perceptive is critical, however, and this is the "hard part" for any art form. In some ways, this can actually be easier with 3D modeling. For example, if something's out of proportion, it may not look like it at one angle, but be very obvious at another angle. If you pay attention while you work, your own model will teach you things. So not only can drawing help you model better, but modeling can help you draw better, as well.

I think it's best to practice both.

- Kef

[Cassandra Helm]

In my experience people who have a talent for drawing can learn to sculpt and people with a natural affinity for sculpture can be taught to draw.

The abilities a very different though. With drawing the focus is on light and shade and using 2d tricks to get the mind to see in 3D. This is actually how our eyes work with our mind.

With sculpture you think geometrically. When I learned this I understood what it was that I was doing intuitively and my work improved a great deal as a result since I could apply that understanding deliberately. I think in shapes - 3D shapes. People who draw in my experience think in shade and 2D shapes.

You don't have to draw to sculpt, though I keep telling myself that it is a useful skill to develop!

[taemee]

well i m a dual graduate ( one graduation in dual Maths and Physics and the 2nd i did in traditional arts with major in Graphic Design) and i m a lead artist in a gaming studio. i myself m a traditional sculptor and i also use Zbrush. in my opinion Drawing is the difference betwean a great artist (traditional or digital) and an average guy.

[willbrown1]

When I attended the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts many years ago (37 YIPEs!), first year studio courses were a mixture of everything. At least twice a week, we either did figure studies or portraits in clay. We also had intensive drawing from the figure, cast drawing, and quick sketching from the figure. In addition we also painted still life, portrait and the figure. I can think of no better way to get good at art than to spend at least a year in instructed painting, drawing and sculpting classes.

Drawing enhanced my ability to paint and sculpt and those skills enhanced my ability to draw. It creates a feedback loop.

More study, different study, will add to your ability to achieve your artistic goals.

Anyone of average intelligence can learn to draw well with practice. It's how you apply it and use it to express your vision, that will determine your place in the art world.


Learn to draw, well; it's worth the time invested!

[Elixir]

Personally I beleive that anyone can master a peice of software... but if you lack the fundamental ability to transfer your imagination or thoughts into something tangible then you are no better than the "help desk".

I have worked in the graphics industry for the last 15 years and many times I have seen people come along and learn some package, like photoshop, and beleive themselves to be a graphic designer.

The ability to draw WELL is a natural talent. You can teach someone how to LOOK and to recognise form and light, but that will not make them the next DaVinci if they lack the ability to apply those fundamentals.

So what I am getting down to is this:

You can imagine and see what it is you want to create, but if there is a disconect between this, and the fine motor skills required to render those thoughts, you will never be happy with your results.

Being a good artist is about placing a mark. Being a good 3D sulptor is about placing a vertex (in a roundabout way).

The trick is to place it well!

Final thought:

Anyone can learn to use a paint brush and oil paint, but that does not make them the next Renoir!

[Ron Harris]

I didnt know what in the hell a cast drawing was until a few minutes ago....lol...derrrrrr....found this link if anyone is interested..

http://www.learning-to-see.co.uk/clytie-1.html



Dan-Burke I'd say that being good at drawing will help you a lot, but not being good at drawing can hurt you if your sculpts have the same mistakes your drawings would have Definitely agree, DanB.

Ed the Atom, a very good artist here on zbc, once gave me tremendous guidance and advice on how to improve my skills (which still need considerable work). Words to the effect of, " draw, draw, draw...and copy others works on paper for continued practice....."

Well I did that and studied and still try to study photo clippings etc....my drawings got a bit better (as he predicted) and my zbrush models changed quite a bit as well. Mainly as DanB said, I quit making the same mistakes (well part of the mistakes)in my drawings and this carried over in the process to zbrush as well. It worked. I am not saying my level is where it needs to be at present, but progression is there, due to Eta's advice. My eternal thanks, Paul.:tu:

Drawing for me personally is a blue print of taking the idea to the next level, whether it be sculpting, 3d modeling etc....Look at alot of the great projects we have seen on this forum and they will post their concept art... Some get away with just going with the flow....but a plan of action will keep you in the right direction.

Another artist and friend from the forum, Stonecutter once told me, Don't allow the program make you settle for something less ...you guide the program/tool dont allow it to hinder your creation, making your realized ideas less that what you wanted. Also Ron, slow down and take your time with your works...too rushed and it showed in my works. I was posting 3 or 4 embarassing pics a day. When I see most of those now, I cringe with embarrassment. (it was words to that effect and appreciated. Thnx bro!) Hope it made sense to everyone else...lol...(I'm only on my 2nd cup of java this morning) :D

Another example from another artist friend of mine, Mentat7/Lonnie Sargeant was simple... my models were lumpy and bumpy and looked like dough...Ron, try pushing and pulling on points...start low poly and work and increase the poly count as you go along....and for God's sake Ron, pull the outside corners of your eyes down and more level...(Slosh, also gave me some of that advice)...immediately those little things pushed my work levels ahead of where it was at, at that time. (thnx Lon and Bri for the honesty and the tips)

So much practice left and so much to learn and so so so very little time...and so far to still go.....but what a fun journey.

Love everyone's opinions of the subject....very cool thread.

Ron
catfishmn@aol.com

ps. time for more coffee, laterz taterz.