Trayn Of Thot WIP...Updated Sept.20 (Page 3)...Mostly Final Character

[Stonecutter]

As one of the people who started the concept of the WIP here, and seeing as a lot of people have said, why don't we see a walkthrough type deal, I thought I'd give it a go...
Long time viewers might remember that pre-ZSphere, I did a 2D painting for this image...The idea is an R. Crumb type image of an old street guy, raving to himself, walking down an inner city street, with all his worldly goods being towed behind him. Originally I was going to have him hauling a shopping cart, but I've decided to make it a wagon with a mis-matched wheel...The next steps involve finishing this guy, the main character, and then I will be placing him into his environment...
I will be working without a net, and will be posting the modelling stages, so if I fall on my face, you'll be there! :D ;)

(But I don't think I will... :D)

As you can see I'll be working an adaptive skin, so this is early going yet...He is just becoming a character, and I have only worked on his facial beginnings so far...And he will have the R. Crumb trademark big feet...I must be true to my heritage!!!

Hope you enjoy the ride...

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1030770280umb.jpg

When I do the wall with the mural on it, I'll post the original finished 2D painting, since on the wall it will be grafittied, and trashed out... :)

I should also thank Ken Billiant for his great example, and for making me aware that you have to think of the mesh first...It's easy to get carried away with ZSpheres...It's better to aim for simplicity I think, even though I'm not there yet.

[filament9]

Hey SC, I will be watching this one develope!
A Crumbesque approach - very cool!

[Stonecutter]

A little further refining of the model, which has been a lot of fun...This method seems to be very comfortable, adding ZSpheres where necessary, and previewing followed by moving same...And you can watch the mesh as you go...It's letting me build the facial expression, and then customize it. And then I can work toward the pose, and detail knowing that each part fits with the rest...Fun!

More to come soon... ;)

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1030782849uqq.jpg


EDIT :I should clarify here that there has been NO modelling at this point on the skinned version, it is all being defined by placement of ZSpheres...In fact I only have the ZSphere tool on the left saved...As I go I will pose the figure and add details and form simultaneously...This is MUCH easier than working on a unified skin!

[banez]

looks good but it looks like he could use a Z sphere Cane or Walker LOL

[Stonecutter]

Don't worry EZ...As I move down, the Dude will bulk up! :D

[DM]

He is looking good, having seen Crumb's work I think he will fit the category nicely. :tu: :tu: :tu:
Dave

[Digits]

Looking forward to this. I cut my teeth on Crumb and how wonderfully degenerate his art still is today.

Onward thru the Fog!

(believe it or not is engraved on my stainless steel coffee cup!)

[Ron Harris]

you are peaking my curiosity with this one SC...cant wait to see more of this wip...

[Ken B]

I like him, esp. the gesture of his head/neck. Will he be posed more?

[Stonecutter]

Yes Ken, I decided to see if I could do a logical flow here, beginning at the head, then posing and shaping him as I go. It seems to match my workflow, and I'm trying to keep the mesh organised as I go...(Thanx to your examples...)

[Mr Z]

Hey, cool SC,

he's looking good so far, I'm seeing what you meant by adaptive skinning being simpler to use, however, with Unified skinning, one can place the Zspheres anywhere and they still look good when skinned, you can also save the zsphere model, but...

I've noticed that there is a limit to the ammount of times one can divide a unified mesh :( , so there is times when detail will go missing if working on a project which requires it.

Thanks for the info though, I'm going to keep trying the adaptive method till I get it right! :D

- Shane

[MJ]

This is looking great Stonecutter! I love his classic stance and expression. I can't wait to see this as it grows


MJ

[Stonecutter]

Actually MJ, he isn't posed at all...
As I rough out his head, I will also be posing and enlarging as I go down his body...
In the final pose, he'll be looking a little skyward, gesturing with his right hand, and pulling his wagon behind him with his left hand...And walking with his big R. Crumb hands and feet... :D

So, his pose is yet to come! ;)

That will probably be the next update, along with his proper body proportions...I'm posting the ZSphere tool at each stage, along with a 2 density, Adaptive skin so people can watch the progress, and see if the method will work for them...When the model is mostly completed, I will be moving to a 3 density skin for finishing...At least that's the plan.

[robotalk]

Mighty Mellow !! Cool Dudus-oh-Brutus--a bop bop a looma a bop bam boom :D :D :D :tu: :tu: :tu: :D :D

[Northstarr]

I will be watching your progress with much interest. Particularly since so far I have had no luck with using Zspheres for people or anything resembling a being for that matter. I cannot get the head at all!!

so far this looks great!

Mak

:cool:

[Stonecutter]

Okay here is the beginning of the old reprobates' character emerging...I want to emphasize that I have done NO modelling at all yet...This is just the ZSpheres and Adaptive skinning...

The ZSphere tool I started with in the first picture is this one...The point is that all you need is the ZSphere, and I believe with careful modelling, you get most of the way there with this approach...On the left, the ZSphere tool I save, in the middle, Adaptive skin at default, on the right, Adaptive skin at 3...(You still have 4 left...) I do this to show the level of detail I already have without working for it!

The next update will have the figure posed, and at least the beginnings of his clothes...Starting to look a little more R. Crumb-like now I think.

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1030859589hmu.jpg

[Mr Z]

Hehe...

your model is definantly coming along great!

Now I cant wait for the next update, I'm sure it will be interesting, I see what you mean about achieving detail without actually having to create the detail, I think I'm going to work in this manner from now on! :)

Looking good SC, keep um' coming mate!

- Shane

[Muvlo]

That's very cool, how you use the ZSpheres to model. :tu:

[Stonecutter]

Muvlo I have to admit this... :rolleyes:
Nikko did a head, that I thought was totally insane for the amount of ZSpheres he had in it, and I believe he had the same thought, at least a little...

Well, guess what? My hat is off to you Danny, because I never would have thought of Forensic Anthropology, which is where this comes from, without seeing the complex head you made...

In Forensic Anthropology, if you have a skull, and you want to re-construct the face on it, you first try to figure out what race it might be, and then apply reference 'pegs' of plasticene, in order to establish flesh 'depth' at various areas of the skull. These are taken from Biometric studies that have been done. You now have depth, and by 'blending' over the bone, and up to the peg levels, you have a face... ;)

So...Thanks Nikko, and your head wasn't so crazy after all, and to Forensic Anthropology for the methodology used... :tu:

[robotalk]

oh no is it going to be Nixon?? :D :D :tu: :tu: :tu:

[Stonecutter]

No RoBo, but at this stage, I see that too! :D
His head shape, and all kinds of other facial things will change. The main thing I think this illustrates about one of the unique powers of ZBrush is that you can make this thing called a ZSphere Tool...It is a teeny thing in filesize...Now, as long as you save IT, you don't HAVE to save a mesh, which is a FIXED thing. You can instead save a ZSphere tool, which is open to modification of any sort...Hit the preview key or button, move something, preview again...Make a skin when you want to add detail, and when you're all set up!

So as I pose this guy, I save my ZSphere, or even variations of it. I'll be able to reconsider his facial features, even up to the last minute, and while I do other parts of him.

Cool Huh? :D

[Flycatcher]

Cool indeed! And an impressive demonstration of the power of ZTools to create much of the detail. :tu: :tu: :tu:

[DeeVee]

At this stage of it's development, it looks like a bit of art produced by the BushNegroes of Suriname(Former Dutch Guyana) :tu: :tu: :tu:

[Bruce Gregory]

Stonecutter:

I see what you were trying to describe. Your character is identifiably a stylistic one and therefore you have great artistic freedom here. What if, however, you wish to construct a very realistic one. No noticeable creases in the face, ( a young person ), if you will. I think it is here that ZSpheres will fail one. From the standpoint of animation, "almost there" won't work, because what you want to animate, strictly speaking, is the mesh itself with textures attached. You could indeed model a "proxy" figure and animate that, but a finished figure with all textures cannot be posed with the aid of ZSpheres, due to the fact that the mesh that the ZSpheres produce is not finalised and still needs the aid of the traditional ZBrush tools. Oh well. Maybe Digits will come through in the end.

Thank you very much,

Bruce Gregory

[Nikko]

Thanks for the props, SC! I'm glad you got a little something from that head model, bizarre as it was.... :)

[Stonecutter]

In line with my intention to provide as much of a walkthrough as possible during this project, here is the final figure design ZSphere tool, and the mesh I will be modelling to finish, including the clothing, all detailing will be done on the mesh, although I might add the eyes seperately, and maybe the odd little touch...

As a gemcutter, I work with materials where a momentary innattention can cause a client $5000.00 in carat loss, so I hope you understand the reason for how long I'm taking...(It has a lot to do with conditioning, as well as the educational value of a patient approach)I will say that I have already done some practice meshwork including clothing, and the time I have taken has taught me a major amount regarding complete figure design from ZSpheres, including what not to do! :D

Later today I hope to post the finished mesh, and I should add that the right hand will be positioned slightly differently than it is here...

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1031789961hsi.jpg

(I also add that this is the 8th version of this mesh... :rolleyes: )

[Grub]

I've just been recently aquainted with R. Crumbs wonderful work, I must say that your
models looking fine and dandy Stonecutter! Great zsphere usage, amazing that there is no post skin modelling yet.
:cool: :tu: :tu: :tu:

[robotalk]

Beyond the Valley of ....Dandy !!! :D :tu: :tu: :tu: :tu: :D

[Stonecutter]

Since I showed this to Slosh, and he indicated surprise, and that I had been keeping the character 'under wraps', I realized that if this was to be a useful 'walkthrough' which is my intention, I should post this version now...I will be modelling in this form, (a 2 Density Adaptive skin), and then using Ken The B's advice to use Modifiers->Smooth at .3 to .5, rather than the Deformers->Smooth which wipes out all the sharp edges, something which would be undesirable...Thanks for your comment Brian, and making me aware that I can't 'hide' the steps and make this useful which is what I want it to be...

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1031801124wez.jpg

[Ron Harris]

nice update SC...love the little journey yer taking us on...closest thing I have had to a vacation in a while :)

[Stonecutter]

Well here's the first overview and testing of the composition...Just the beginning, but some interesting experiments to come. For instance, the other side of the street, which is on the left will be made from a one piece skinned Alpha of all the buildings, which I'm REALLY looking forward to! The lighting is not settled, and the figure will be painted and finished in the next update, and the sidewalk will be placed...I also intend to add cars which I want to do from ZSpheres...Hope you like the idea so far...Oh, and he will be carrying a wine bottle. Given the scale, the idea of him towing his possesions would be merely lost detail...I realize this is kind of barren right now, but I'm posting it at this level so that people who want can follow the steps I'm taking...This is 3 layers, and that is probably all I will need. The background is on one, in Flat color, to prevent shadow and light effects, the wall on one, and the figure on one. Once the buildings on the left are done, I will be adding the sky effects and painting. This will be a busy, (and messy), street scene when done...If you are doing a walkthrough, don't hide the steps, right?

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1031891210qzg.jpg

[Ron Harris]

and what kinda wine....Night Train? ;) (I used to love that stuff....) nice update SC

[Stonecutter]

Thanks Ron...(You know with this ratty dude it ain't gonna be fine Claret... ;) )

[Digits]

Nice to be able to connect some dots. Nice to be able to finally frame the scene. I am looking forward to seeing what you have in mind for the buildings. Lookin great Michael!

[DM]

Nice going, looking forward to the final image. :tu: :tu: :tu:
Dave

[robotalk]

Beeee UUU Teeee Ful !!! --That is looking so good and the description of what's next is great--cant wait-- :tu: :tu: :tu: :tu:

[Stonecutter]

Well, I've been 'winterizing' my boat all week, including re-building the carb for my diesel furnace so I haven't been doing graphics, rather I've been filing and shaping little pieces of brass and steel, so I just finally got back to work on this...
Since I intend this to be useful as a walkthorugh, and an illustration of my peculiar working method, I'm posting this update...
At this point, the character is almost finished but the details and 'wear and tear' still need some more work...

Next will come the booze bottle in his hand and then the street scene around him, including some ZSphere 'bulgy' R. Crumb car work...This is three layers, all I usually use, and the background painting is still to come, after I put the buildings on the otherside of the street, and the sidewalk under the figure...I told you I have a strange working method... :D

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1032567619oyl.jpg

[Bruce Gregory]

Stonecutter:

I like the simplicity of this character - rather "Yellow Submarinish". Let's move him around, shall we? Let's walk him up and down and round and round our little Zbrush world.

How long, Ohh Digits?

Bruce Gregory

[Mahlikus The Black]

Wow this is a great image! Its coming along nicely!
Love the character S/C!
:D :tu: :tu: :tu:

[Ron Harris]

You have really put alot of work into this piece, SC. Alot of 60s and 70s themes happening in zbrush and this one is leading the pack with such detail. Nice update...and keep em coming.. :cool: :cool: :cool: now let me find my platform shoes or my earth sandals :D

[Stonecutter]

I can't believe you remember Earth Sandals Ron...!!! :D :D :D

[robotalk]

That is looking Great !! funny dude with frayed pants is terrific !

[rhom]

Beautiful work SC-your attention to detail
and the planning of your images are really a treat to behold.Thanks for this inspiring
walkthrough.I watch.

[Frenchy Pilou]

I suggest to add a Taxi Cab on the left :)
And the man can now said "Hep ! TAXIII !!!"
Pilou

[DeeVee]

I like this update Michael, I thought you had given up on it for a while. I think a dog chasing a cat would be a nice addition.
DeeVee,
Joe.

[DM]

Nice update Michael. :tu: :tu: :tu:
Dave

[Stonecutter]

I'm posting this image due to a question regarding Adaptive vs. Unified skins, and the relative merits of each on Ron's 'Fingers and Toes' thread...This is the ACTUAL mesh I used for my figure, and all it is, is the previous one, with smoothing...

I want to emphasize that this is Tool->Modifier smoothing at .27, NOT Tool->Deformation smoothing, which wipes out all detail as far as I'm concerned...

I'm posting this because I want as complete a sequence of operations as possible here, so people can get something out of it...I'm not an egomaniac, just trying to be helpful... :rolleyes: ;)

All I did with this guy is snapshot him to the canvas, and then use the 'Single Layer' brush, with ZAdd off, and only RGB selected to paint him, followed by using the 'Blur' brush to remove facetting, since I didn't want to wipe out his angular face planes...It's a cartoon, right? In a more realistic figure I will do it differently. The shading enhancer with and without the ALT key was used to shade the figure and produce the fingernails, knuckles, and facial contours...It's 2D after all...The teeth were added, one at a time, and the eyes were painted with Toy Plastic, and ZAdd off...The beard, and hair are just painted in and then 'Snake-hooked'.

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1032649948hih.jpg

The reason I prefer the Adaptive is that I can get at the mesh, and it isn't a mosquito net fineness, so it's easier to keep it organized...When I first started using ZBrush, I thought of it as 'Magic Clay', and I must admit I loved being able to disregard the mesh...Now to me, the MESH is the magic...You can smooth it all kinds of ways to suit your purpose, but you should try to work with it... ;)

[Bruce Gregory]

Stonecutter:

Yeah, but can you animate it?

Bruce, Gregory

[Stonecutter]

No Bruce, but I've moved on...
I hope to have Lightwave and Cinema 4D next week... :D
I admire what you would like but I think it has to be in the future, as far as ZBrush is concerned...I don't become obsessive about software, and stopped using MAYA Unlimited, just because it didn't suit my workflow. I see ZBrush at this point as a fantastic front end for producing 'Bone-able' meshes for traditionally powerful animation software, not a stand-alone, do it all app... ;)

[Bruce Gregory]

Stonecutter:

I was just teasin'. I know, there are probably many easier, even more direct approaches to reach the animation goalpost, but I come from those places, and for a person wanting to do animation - day in and day out - animating with f-curves, morph targets, adjusting, rendering, re-adjusting, re-rendering is, for me, like one famous animator who switched from 2D traditional, to 3D computer animation once said - "Animating with a computer is like animating with a microwave." I get it, and agree. It lacks that "tactile" sensation and any form of instant gratification - and is highly technical, to boot. To each as he will. Plus, think of all of the supplimentary effects that can be produced in Zbrush and look spectacular and be lacking that "computer animated" look, which I am getting tired of seeing. You're right, ZBrush is very capable of being employed the way that you suggest, and, I am sure most will use it this way - however, "and now, for something completely different." People tire so quickly and easily.

best of luck in your efforts,

Bruce, Gregory

[Stonecutter]

And a GREAT tease it is Bruce... :D

But...You might be onto something regarding that 'computer animation' look...I am fairly tired of that too...I watched 'Final Fantasy' and was amazed like most people, but the 'look' put me off...I look at Futurama, where they used ToonShaders, and built a 3 or 4 block area around the Planet Express building, and say, 'Now that's the way to use computers in animation!' In the end, it's the integration of the technology and the tradition I want as well as you, I suspect...Let the computer do the 'heavy lifting' and let the human work show through! :tu: :)

[ed_the_atom]

Looking really good! :tu: :tu: :tu: :tu:
Stonecutter.

[Bruce Gregory]

Stonecutter:

Yeah, the heavy lifting part is what I am, now, not so sure of. Like most, I got sucked into that argument by the promise of the computer doing just that. But, how does it do just that? As all those guys doing computer animation for a living will tell you, the computer is a lousy in-betweener. It's a machine, and it in-betweens like a machine would. That's the main issue. How much time do you want to spend, doing what? Do you want to spend your time correcting a machine's errors, or do you want to just get on with things and do it yourself.

Here is something else to consider: I don't think a single animator working in the industry today, can exceed the volume of "drawings" that one of the "old-timers" could put out in a day. And those who come close - I wonder how gratified they are at the end of that day. There was one such guy working a long time ago at Disney who could draw 1000 frames per day, good ones. The "heavy lifting" was done right inside his head. I like that. Now, the other issue is the love of gadgets. I love gadgets as much or more than the next guy and have the receipts to prove it. But, I don't think what gadgets provide is what people are really after, in the long run. And, gadgets break. And when they break, who do you get to fix them? Can ZBrush heavy lift? It can, if you consider that while doing much of the lifting yourself, it becomes the entire "Ink and Paint", "Rotoscoping" and "Camera" department in place of those other bozos you would have had to hire. Leave the human stuff to the humans and give the rest to the "chimpanzees".
Just a couple of thoughts.

Bruce, Gregory

[Slosh]

And the award for longest WIP goes to....

Just teasing, Miguel! I was just telling Ron Harris that you have been working on this for such a long time, but then you are a gemcutter, so perfection and attention to detail is probably something you just can't help.

[Stonecutter]

:D, Brian...

I'm working on lots of projects while I do this, and MOST of them have nothing to do with computers... ;)
But I also enjoy what I do anyway, and since I'm not in any hurry, well....
And in this case, I want to do a long WIP anyway, since there are a lot of people on the Forum who might like to watch the ENTIRE process...If you check my '1000' post thread, you'll find that I am one of the people who started the 'WIP' idea in the first place here... :D

(But you guys might get a little older while I do this! It is coming to the conclusion now though...I promise! ;) )

[Slosh]

Trust me, I understand. And why rush, anyway? It's been an interesting thread all around, so there certainly is no reason to explain yourself. I admit, I didn't realize the billboard was not an image of it's own, until you pointed out that it was part of the larger project. Very nice work, so don't take my weird sense of humor as an attack, by any means. OK? :tu: :D