Diary of a VSWIP (Very Slow Work in Progress)

[elarcano]

Ok, first things first,

I'm still new to zbrush, in fact I'm new to all the 3D world... -heck- ZB is the first 3D/2.5D program that I've ever used.

The main goal on this thread is to show the development of a model from the point of view of somebody that doesn't know squat about 3D. For new users I think it will be a relief to see someone who knows less than them and for more advance users... well, to review some basic mistakes made in the process -and there shall be a LOT of mistakes-

Since there is sooooo much I have yet to learn, I'll try to do so on the way, from the basic zsphere structure to a fully painted model.

-Warning-
This is NOT a tutorial nor the "good" way of doing things right, just a diary of a VSWIP made from someone who has no remorse in showing his 3D clumsyness


With that said... off I go:

Character: Ezequiel

Ok, I started with a basic zsphere structure, very simple... in fact... Too simple after knowing that a good zsphere structure will help you a lot to get things done ahead in the mesh's form


Basic Structure copy.jpg

With this structure I found a lot of problems when going to preview mode (A - shortcut) as shown in this (http://zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?p=275846&posted=1#post275846) thread

It seems that when the connections between zspheres are too close to each other it creates overlaps in the mesh, which will give you a BIG headache trying to fix it when you spot it -generally after you have advance in modeling-

Basic recommendations:

Go from zspheres to preview and back A LOT to see if there's no mesh overlaping
To pose generic models -or as Jason call them "templants"- based on zspheres structures you MUST "Store Morph" in Tool/Morph Target with the preview off before doing any modeling or posing
Be sure to be completely happy with your zsphere structure before storing your morph, because if you add or delete a zsphere, then you'll lose your stored morph without even knowing it
After some recommendations and re-thinking I went back to creating another zsphere structure


Basic Structure 1 copy.jpg


Ok ok, I went bonkers with the magnets -I have to admit it- but it worked for me because Ezequiel is the "Muscle" character and needed quite a big "mass" mesh... that and that I couldn't achieve it just with linked zspheres


After reviewing it, I didn't find mesh overlaps... so I went on


This is how it looked in preview mode at SDiv 5


Basic Structure 2 copy.jpg


Not very flashy at all nor muscular -sigh -... hmmmm... but I went through anyway


This is after some modeling on SDiv 5 -I've read that it's better to start modeling from lower levels to upper levels... well it's just a recommendation which I followed


Basic Structure 3 copy.jpg



Well... more to come



Any critics, comments, feedback or corrections to my nonesense are very welcome



PS.

Just in case you missed Jason's thread you can find it here (http://zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=21407&page=1&pp=15) / highly recommended

[Prayer]

good luck man !

[Jason Belec]

Well it's looking good so far. ;)

[elarcano]

Thanks guys. Kind words from kind people

Ok, here we go again,

First of all... hmmmmm, remember I recommended you to press Store Morph before doing any modeling when using a zsphere structure?... well, the best way to learn that is to not do it and later on making you life a living hell when you try to repose the model within Zbrush... well... I forgot doing so -OH THE TRAGEDY
as far as I know, pressing Store Morph with the preview off helps you when you want to repose your model in zbrush by tweaking you zsphere structure and if you know how to do it "right" you have a lot of reposing possibilities without exporting your model to another 3D program.

So ok, I made a BIG Zsphere mistake -Sorry Jason-... knowing that, I went on with my life and made an Adaptive skin... and then did some basic anatomy remodeling.



ZBrush Document 1.jpg

I really prefer to go from general to particular -an old art school habit -... and that I'm veeeeeery slow :rolleyes:

[womball]

I think that's a very good workflow. General to specific, that way you can get your proportions right before adding details.

[Jason Belec]

I agree with womball. Then you wouldn't have forgotten a key step. ;) That's like an oil painter forgetting the canvas! ;)

Pretty cool other than that.

Of course now you are learning old school - repetition, do it enough times and you will get it right. ;)

[elarcano]

From general to particular, that's a habit I acquired in art school. It's important for getting the "Big picture", because you could make some fine details and the rest is still to be defined but the problem with this is that you could spend a lot of time in the fine details and not necesarily look good when you finish later on the rest.
In painting it's called painting by layer -sorry, it's not a technical name - First you start with a washy kinda first layer -so the paint impregnates the fibers of the canvas- and then you go on by layers and in each layer you add more more details but as a whole... ok... I've gone to far with this method thing

Thanks for sticking around guys, much appreciated

[elarcano]

Almost a week from the last post with images! And you're suppose to get "quicker" as you get used to the program!
Man, am I sloooow or what?!!!

Well, here are some improvements -if they qualify as that-
Just some anatomy tweaking -I'm pretty happy with the proportions so I'm going foward for the details-


Basic Structure 5-1.jpg


And a bit of a close up to the yet undetailed head


Basic Structure 5.jpg


Yep! That's all folks



-Any tips or comments are as always, very welcome-



-That's what took you all week?- My relentless concience

-SHUT UP!-

-Your gaining some weight and smoking way too much- My relentless concience

-Where's my antipsicotic pill?-

[Santis]

Omg, thats one of the coolest monsters i have ever seen!

[Jason Belec]

Really nice work Fidel! This is going to be a cool monster! I do hope you went back and made him poseable!! ;) For a guy in the corner you sure do learn fast.

[wenna]

This is very cool! I like the idea of this thread.. maybe I might be able to follow along! Thanks again for writing out your procedures and even the mistakes, that way we all can (maybe) avoid them.


wenna

[Santis]

For how long have you ben into ZBrush?

[elarcano]

Oh Dear Diary,
Today I feel that I love Katty even more than yesterday, because evertime I think of her, I feel like I can fly high into the... OH! Sorry,wrong Diary

Hey guys! Thanks A LOT for the kind words!
This is the first time I get to "answer" somethings one by one... that's pretty cool!

Santis:
Omg, thats one of the coolest monsters i have ever seen! Wow! It amazing that you like the "little fella" SO muc... wait a minute... mom? Is that you?!!!

No really Santis, Wow! pretty strong words, thanks! But I must STRONGLY recommend you to look around the community. The are sooooooo many awesome artist who really know what their doing and that are tremendously gifted. Just to mention a few: alexleia (http://zbrushcentral.com/zbc/member.php?u=19781), sebcesoir (http://zbrushcentral.com/zbc/member.php?userid=13180), BlackNull (http://zbrushcentral.com/zbc/member.php?u=58932), madmac (http://zbrushcentral.com/zbc/member.php?u=7078), kissb (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/member.php?userid=39020), boozy floozie (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/member.php?userid=310), asims (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/member.php?u=30717), carlos_sr (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/member.php?u=60511), joe_seig (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/member.php?u=48087), metamesh (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/member.php?u=17648) and my very favorite Jedi Zmaster Jason Belec (http://zbrushcentral.com/zbc/member.php?find=lastposter&f=3) -who I like to refer as my friend... or the guy who just tolerates me

For how long have you ben into ZBrush? Well, I would have like to spend 2 years working on something really cool before posting it and then saying that I just had ZB for 2 weeks... but I think I blew that opportunity
I think I've had ZB since February, so thats makes... -where's my calculator?-... 3 months now -and really enjoying it- But to be honest I have to say that I've had a 5 year formal Fine Art studies... that and that I'm unemploid... so I got TONS of time on my hands now!


Jason:Thanks man! -means a lot to me
I do hope you went back and made him poseable!! I guess this is the part that I could say that my dog ate my zsphere tools?
Unfortunately I didn't went back, just foward with the experiment to see the other "option" -adaptive skin-
But I'll to come up with another guy with zspheres all the way. This is just one of several characters I intend to do... if I don't dye or get a job at flipping burgers before
I went through with my zsphere mistake because I wanted to leave a straight record of what you can do when you mess up a very simple but basic rule -of course, I could've done the zsphere structure again, but didn't- So don't forget gang... Store Morph before any modeling or posing... and stay away from drugs -that was the Mr. T in me-
So yeah... I'll have to use another 3D program to pose him

Wenna:
I'm very glad that this could help you or anyone... that's the idea of the thread... and to meet someone who can avoid the possibility of me flipping burgers... I even burn water!

Man! This is getting long and looks more like an interview to a very bad unemploid comedian... so ok... I've tried to do some detailing but... AHA! -no, not the 80's band- A posible mistake or something my little gray matter doesn't understand and don't know how to fix it!
Ezequiel has already 2568512 poligons but I don't know if I've pushed to much the mesh from the original result of the zsphere structure -post 1/ pic 3- that when I try to do some fine details it just isn't possible without the poligons showing in a very aweful way


Basic Structure 6 copy.jpg


Basic Structure 6-1 copy.jpg



I've tried dividing it as high as 7 millions -I think- as a test, but my computer will puke blood if I really work on that level... besides -yep! another question- What's the max amount of poligons that I can migrate to another 3D program without losing all the fine details done at this division?


I hope these questions doesn't send this thread to the "questions and troubleshooting..." basket


Thanks for the futher assistantship -really need it!-


Chau!

[Santis]

"The are sooooooo many awesome artist who really know what their doing and that are tremendously gifted."

Yes I know, they are really good. They can do cool and detailed monsters, but your monster looked sooo cool. Even if some of the other monsters are more advanced then yours, your designe was cooler, they are too classic. Like a Vampire, it can be detailed and stuff like that, but they already exist, I have never seen a monster like THAT before, and that impressed me.:)

[slocik]

7mln polys is way to much, dont worry about the polys looking taht way, it wont be wisible anyway when the whole model will be on the pic, you can turn off the quick 3d and in tool> display> turn on smooth ad set dsmooth 1 :]

[elarcano]

Santis:
Thanks again man!

Slocik:
Yeah, I imagine that 7 millions is way too much... but why? -Remember I know "squat" about 3D-

The other thing is that I'm planning to use these characters for animation -long way from now- as well as still images, so there could be a close up in the future... then what?
The gray image has the quick 3D Edit off and the DSmooth is already at 0.5 (post 13 / second image / left)

So the questions are still unanswered (post 13 / under the images)

Thanks ladies and gentlemen

[ilusiondigital]

Hey elarcano, great stuff, when i see the basic zsphere model i think... psssss. but each step is better, you are making a great character, it has character =)))

[abone114]

7 mil. polys is too much because it will bog down any normal system when it comes to render time let alone any kind of animation you might want to do with your character. a computers memory can only handle so much. an ideal area you want to focus on for a high resolution mesh is 100,000-500,000 at the very most to RENDER, you still could not animate at this poly count. you would have to use a target mesh and replace this mesh at rendertime. but there are tricks around this if you are using another 3d package to render, either maya, max or xsi. displacement maps are the most used way to go, if you want to do gaming models then normal maps are also great for this. i suggest you look up and research both typs of maps, there are LOTS of tutorials on this forum reguarding both kinds. im not an expert at all at either one yet or i would help you myself. good luck! and very nice work for your first 3d work, im impressed

[aminuts]

hi,

Well, it seems you have read well the forums and have picked up on the important notes supplied there in so....I really can't add much to help ya other than to say....

Keep going.....you are on the right track! Patience, and saving alot are your friends!

Haven't posted in a long while and had to relog in so am not sure if my signature links are still there til I commit this reply but if they are.....check out my worlds best links to PU's and Scripts.......best 2 hours of checking stuff out here you will spend....well maybe not the best 2 but definitely will save ya enuf time for more researching later.

ps....welcome to the nut house!

[elarcano]

Thanks Guys for your comments and for taking the time to post -really encouraging -

ilusiondigital:
I've heard the same comment about me before

abone114:
Yeah, I think I'll go displacement maps -If I ever learn the full meaning of it -
If I'm not wrong -and probably I am- Displacement maps have height, depth and relief while Bump maps doesn't affect the mesh's relief... hmmmm... have to do more research about that

aminuts:
Wow! I've seen your links and it'll be more like the best 2 years spent -I'm not that bright-
Yeah! Saving a lot as become my best new friend after ZB has chrashed some times on me after some hours of modeling ... patience... well... I'm a visual artist who's unemploid, so that's like my breakfast every morning
Thanks for the welcome... The program as well as the community are adictive!

Ok, new problem or maybe not -what do I know-

I was working on the head and saved, but at the very end of saving the program crashed and I'm not sure if has something to do with it.


Basic Structure 7.jpg


It's not something I'ved pulled... it's like if it doesn't exist when I turn around the model (full model) and the holes in the nostrills go away when I go to a lower level of polys


Basic Structure 7-1 copy.jpg


By the way, this is my PC specifications:

AMD Athlon 2.6+ XP Processor

Nvidia MSI GeForce FX 5200 128 Video card

1G of ram

And a pretty cool but old case


So if anyone could answer me that would be great


At this rate if I don't post some improvements I'll be kicked to the loooonely "questions and troubleshooting..." forum



PS:

Yes, I've tried Smart ReSym, ReSym and praying... but nothing... I'd really hate to have to go an earlier version So someone has to have an explaination and a possible solution -that goes for the lurkers as well-

[-WOODY-]

Ah yes, the notorious run away vertice syndrum.
This has happend to me a few times. Normally the offending vertice is only dissplaced at the highest sub d level. I have noticed that there are usually 2 reasons why this happens. One is that you have subdivided the model way beyond what your system can handle ( happens to me sometimes at around 4 to 6 million polys ), or you've saved your model at a sub d level other than level one.

There are many ways to fix this such as using smart resym, which however may not work because the vertice is too dissplaced.
You could try moving it manually to get it as close to the original position then mask off the good side then try smart resym.
You can do this by hiding the faces around the vertice until it is clear of any obstruction then hiding the rest of the faces in your model until you are left with the face that the vertice originates from. you can then use the move tool to nudge the vertice back into place as close as you can.

I have tried the same thing myself, but have noticed that even though I fixed the problem, it often reoccurs again. I think that it may be becuase the file itself has become corrupted in which case there's not much you can do except maybe delete the highest sub d level that the problem is at and detail it over, or just start from scratch.
Sorry, I know that this does not sound too incouraging. Unless someone else has a better solution.

[elarcano]

Woody:


or you've saved your model at a sub d level other than level one
Now this is one of the reasons I started this thread... It would have never ocurred to me that you had to save the model at the lowest level -there is no smiley that could express my feelings right now!... well, this one is pretty close except that he's on the top of a building ready to jump-

I'll try to deleting the SubDiv that has the problem... let's see...

Thanks Woody

[-WOODY-]

Your welcome.

It is a very cool model and I would hate for you to lose all of your work. Please try the first method by moving the vertice back into place. If you still have problems like the vertice moving again or a different vertice moving out of place, then try deleting the highest sub d level then detailing it over again.

[aminuts]

hi,

alot of times this will also happen from using the hide mesh feature at higher subd levels......it's really really important when select hiding to make sure double sided is turned on, spin that model around, zoom in, especially at higher subd's when using hide select....cuz it's really easy to miss a point.

in my links.....first one to get is PSnap ....the beauty of this plugin is the latest version allows you to not only save your model in incremental file numbers at a whim....but it now saves them in the lowest subd level automatically for you. Please give a big thank you to Svengali in that thread after you download it and see that there really is a god!

There are many more that one shouldn't live without either....check em out.

model on...

[billrobertson42]

Yeah, I imagine that 7 millions is way too much... but why? -Remember I know "squat" about 3D-

Think about it this way. Each polygon requires a little bit of memory, and then every time you want to do something to the model, like look at it (i.e. render it), it requires a little bit of math to be done. Your computer is pretty good at doing math very fast, but when you ask it to do that math 7 million times over you may start to notice that seems kind of slow, and if you exceed your main memory then you'll experience a whole other level of pain when your system starts thrashing, which can happen when you've asked it to keep more in memory than it actually has. So it does some work with virtual memory to keep you happy, but at a very severe performance penalty.

Now, if you hop down a couple of sub-division levels to say 437500 polygons your computer will have to do about 16 times less work to make your wishes come true, and you'll be a happier guy, and since the memory requirements go way down too you will be less likely to end up thrashing as well.

Keep up the good work.

[elarcano]

Hey! Seems that everybodies at home on Memorial weekend! -good for me -

Woody:
Thanks man for your concern... but now that I think of it... it's probably because you nor nobody wants to see that awfull first zsphere mesh again! hahahahaha
I'm trying to find that crazy poly

Aminuts:
That's exactly what I was doing, hiding the mesh at the highest level! I'll try out Svengali's plug-in and of course I'll thank him and you for it

billrobertson42:
Thanks for the explanation man! I was just re-reading the thread and saw that that was still unanswered

Huh... just two more questions before Aurick kicks my thread into the lonely forum:

As I mentioned, I have 1G of ram and the settings in the Preferences/Compact Mem are at 700MB... is that ok?
Displacement maps are only to be used after doing all the modeling or could you use it as you sculpt your way on?
Thanks guys... This is what makes this community so AWESOME! -not my thread of course -

[-WOODY-]

As I mentioned, I have 1G of ram and the settings in the Preferences/Compact Mem are at 700MB... is that ok?

That sounds about right. Normally you would set that to about 50 to 75% of your amount of ram. If you can afford it, 2 gigs of ram would be better. There's no such thing as too much ram.

Displacement maps are only to be used after doing all the modeling or could you use it as you sculpt your way on?

That is only used at the end of your modeling session before you export your model out to another program.

[elarcano]

Life is Good and the Sun's shining over here -literary speaking-... so there are good news ... well... for me anyway

First of all I want to give a BIG round of applause to Woody (http://zbrushcentral.com/zbc/member.php?find=lastposter&t=34848). He insisted that I should find those crazy poligons instead of deleting the highest level... so I did and finally with a lot of caution I found them and pushed them back into "sanity"
Thanks Steve, now I know where "Grandpa Teenywink" comes from ... and no hammer was needed

Well, this one's for newbees out there -I'm included-


Basic Structure 8-1.jpg

Basically you just follow Woody's instructions: Hide parts of the mesh until you find what you're looking for -lots of patience-, move, nugde and get them as close as you can to where you want and then smooth them in.

Has it ever happened to you that sometimes your mouse pointer just goes crazy and ends up where ever it wants to? Like when you playing a game or drawing? Well, it seems that that could've happened when I was in edit/move mode

That's for the nostril "holes" problem (post #20-right image)


For the Full body problem (post #20-left image) Well... I couldn't find any solution... it seemed like it had the same problem, but no matter how much time I spent on looking for some other "crazy polis", I couldn't. It seems that it was a problem of a corrupted file, because everytime I tried to "fix it", ZB kept on crashing on me again and again. So it's probably a problem with the file itself maybe caused by the crashing when I first saved it -explained in post #20 / above the image)


This is the corrupted file... or what a smoker's model looks like


Basic Structure 8-2.jpg


So my fellow newbees... save a lot. I didn't lose too much because I'm used to save the same model with different names as I work -just in case things like this happens-

Another related tip would be if you have an undo restriction as I do, is to save in the same file the model until you are going to try something radical or new. Before doing that, save and then do the risky thing and if you're happy with it or you're not too sure about it, save it with another name like: Model1, model2, model3, etc

And yes, Svengali's PSnap (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=26981&page=2&pp=20&highlight=psnap) does this easier and also as Aminut explained, it saves the model on it's lowest level... which means it saves A LOT of space on yor hard drive... Thank Aminuts -already thanked Svengali -


Thanks everybody for their interest and support in answering my basic questions

[slocik]

yep, i also had a problem like this, sometimes the poligons seem to go tarvel somewhere far away :/ sometimes it is really hard to find them and move them back in place :/

[elarcano]

Yep! Been working on the head. My biggest problem is struggling with expanded polys -I've already mentioned this -


Basic Structure 8.jpg

My buddy Ezequiel's getting a bit "horny"
-Man! what on old joke -

I'm Tempted to SubDiv even more... but I'll detail the rest first and then take a decesion -from general to specific -



Woody: There's no such thing as too much ram
How about questions?

Is a displacement map proportionally as big as it's original mesh?
Colors are also affected by a low poligon count or where the they have been too expanded?
Thanks gang

[Jason Belec]

I wouln't subdivide more unless absolutely necessary. You should have more than enough detail capability here.

As for your other questions, displacement: not sure what you are asking and in realtion to what.... In most apps that handle displacement it's called at time of render to free up the animators from having to be burdened. The maps are what the maps are in size for time of render (some control can be exercised depending on applications involved).

As for colour, the map is what you set, doesn't matter what geometry, if you set a 2048x2048, that is the size. I am tired, so I may have misunderstood. ;)

[cspalak]

Hey what's up the model is looking good, I dig the head. The dark spot on the front toothe looks a little weird to me. Im a noob myself too, going to have to check out that psnap plugin sounds usefull =P. I had a file go corrupt on me too =/, not sure what its deal is, may try sending it to someone with more ram to see if thats the problem. It dies everytime I try to open it, except for once which then died shortly after haha. Only have 512 ram atm, im super poor tho so gonna be a bit till I can get more.

[Blaine91555]

One thing I see that you may have missed in all of this - To see what you truly have you need to turn of the "Quick 3D Edit" button on the top labeled quick.

Then you need to go to Tool>Display Properties> and set the smoothing. Those nasty little facets will disappear. What you are seeing with quick enabled is not what it will render out to be. I misunderstood that at first and kept going to far. If your head is around 1.5 million polys, you should be seeing detail down to nearly the pore level.

Smart way to start out. I used the beat my head against the wall before I ask anyone method. I got a sore head for my trouble:o

[elarcano]

Hi guys

Jason Belec:
Thanks for the answer with the color question -now I get it... I think so What I meant is if there's a difference between a displacement map made from a mesh with 500.000 polys and one with 2.000.000 polys. There probably are differences... but just want to be sure what are the differences
*Personal note* Don't over do it man, get some rest

cspalak:
Glad you "dig it" There's still a lot to refine in the head, but it'll do for now... off to another part -and the black hole is just 2 little bumps together between the teeth-

Blaine91555:
Its funny because your signature is one of the first of many things that made me laugh in this community I've always wonder how Alaska really is
Yeah, I've tried moving the smooth slider, but as you can see in the image, there's not much of a difference because it's already at 0.5 and yes, I do turn off the quick button off. I just turn it on with the Frame button so you can see how the polys are aligned

So I hope this images makes the issue a bit clearer


Basic Structure 9.jpg

The whole model has at this level 2.568.512 but the head alone has 305.664 and as you can see with the "expanded polys" the level of details are a bit limited, but I think that as I gain experience I'll coe around with some solution.

And yes, I'm making up the questions as I go... because as I mentioned before... I know squat about any 3D related issues and if someone can learn from my mistakes, that would be great... take it as a legacy from a clumsy Zbrusher

PS.
I write with a bit bigger letter just to make it easier to read... but at this rate this thread will have 56 pages of my own nonesense

Again, thanks everybody

[Dreamreef]

Hi Elarcano

I have to agree with Santis it a great looking monster and very different from the norm....Wish my imagination was as good as yours.

I hope you get your problem sorted

Dreamreef

[Sebcesoir]

The style is awsome....

Is it a custom design?
I love the mix of very precise and fine details, and cartoon proportions...

[elarcano]

Hi gang -again-

Dreamreef:
Thanks for the compliment! But as we say over here: "There's nothing new under the sun" -it makes more sense in spanish-
Once I had a "Theory of Art" class and we tried to find a concrete definition to what Art is -the oldest question... well, maybe the who was first-chicken-egg question beats it
And we couldn't find it because there was so much to take in consideration... but one of the things that we could point out is that there's some kind of succession of ideas. As you can see, nobody went from Early Renaissance Painting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Renaissance_painting) (Jan van Eyck (http://images.google.com.pe/images?svnum=30&hl=es&lr=&q=Jan+van+Eyck+art), Piero della Francesca (http://images.google.com.pe/images?svnum=30&hl=es&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=piero+della+francesca&spell=1), etc) to Conceptual Art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_art) (Joseph Beuys (http://images.google.com.pe/images?num=30&hl=es&q=joseph%20beuys%20art&sa=N&tab=wi), Joseph Kosuth (http://images.google.com.pe/images?svnum=30&hl=es&lr=&q=joseph+kosuth+art), Piero Manzoni (http://images.google.com.pe/images?svnum=30&hl=es&lr=&q=Piero+manzoni+art&btnG=B%C3%BAsqueda), etc)
To some point -in shorter terms- there has always something that has influenced artist. It's like with Exquisite Corpes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exquisite_corpse), you start with one thing and end up with another... but there's something that links them... ... ok ok... I'm boring everybody -or whomever is still reading this -... What I wanted to say is that I'm sure there are a Lot of images, ideas, artists, etc that may have influenced me on "creating" Ezequiel... but thanks anyway for the compliments on that I really really apreciate it

Sebcesoir:
Hey! Aren't you one of the guys I look up to?!!!!
It's Soooo cool that you say that about it Sebastien!
Ezequiel's one of many characters for a personal artsy farty project -it taking forever!- My local colleagues think that I'm already artistically dead

Thanks everybody for taking the time to read this thread and to the ones who post on it.

I have just a small request... I'd like to know you first names -just to make it a bit friendly-... I wonder what's Jason Belecs real first name?

PS.
No comments on the big letters? So I see nobody's complaining, good

[elarcano]

[Sebcesoir]Is it a custom design? Oh! I misunderstood that one
Yes, I did designed it

[elarcano]

Here's a little update... not much, just detailed the back, the shoulders and some flirting with wrinkles on the neck


Basic Structure 9..jpg

5:13 am... need... to... sleep... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzB

;)

[Moochie]

Watching with interest. Looking very promising. Got to love those early morning modeling sessions .. no interruptions, no distractions.

[elarcano]

Moochie:
Thanks for the interest man You're also one of the ones I first I remember when I entered the comunity

Ok guy... and gals
I've read somewhere in the community a common "problem" in the newbie circle regarding adding details.
They -and I- claim that even having models -or templants- as high as 2 million polys they -we- still can't achive very fine details like pores, good resolution of alphas, skin bumps, wrinkles, etc. I'm sure this is a newbie issue, but I tried to explore it without any great conclusion, only more questions and one severe headache

So I used Ezequiel's shoulder to experiment in which are very "expanded" polys and tried something at Projection Master:


Basic Structure 10 copy.jpg

That's why I've been "playing around" with the SibDiv to see how to get more polys without making it unbearable for my modest PC
What I've learned so far is that with a polymesh there are only 2 ways to SubDiv:

1. Go to the highest level and Subdiv the whole model
2. Hide part(s) of the model, go to the lowest level and SubDiv

The first one didn't work for me because the model is already like 2.5 million polys... -if I'm not wrong here- each poly is divided between 4... so that would be a bit more that 10 million polys -which Isn't advisable according to the recommendations made before from some generous posters ... needless to say that my PC would drop dead

So I tried the second one... but AHA! -not the 80's band joke again!- there seem to be an issue.
I hide mostly all the model except the good old examplary shoulder and this is what I found out:


Basic Structure 10-3 copy.jpg

At first it seem good ... but then...


Basic Structure 10-4 copy.jpg

It seems that when you try the second way, it only SubDiv's the visible part and not hidden one

This could be of some help... but I'm not sure about that... aaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnd.... here is where the z-experts (no, not sexperts... or who knows ) jump in and correct my nonesense effort.

I'm not sure if this is adviseble or the "best way" of finding a solution to my headache... so I'll leave it to anyone who want's to give some valuable insight

PS.
The "Quick/edit mode" is only to visually demostrate these issues better

Oh!... and if it is not too much to ask... this question is still unanswered:

Is if there's a difference between a displacement map made from a mesh with 500.000 polys and one with 2.000.000 polys. There probably are differences... but just want to be sure what are the differences

Thanks A LOT as always... there are some newbie lurkers around and very willing to learn -I know one at least -

[slocik]

Theres no easy way to fix your detail problem. I think you schould go on working on what you have, without adding new polys. Its importand to make a good base mesh before you divide it :/

[laber]

or you add the small details with a bumpmap

load the bumpviewer material, add a 50% grey texture to your model, go into the PM and paint with black/white/greytones your bumpmap and see the result while you painting

[lemonnado]

I think you got cought in the 'divide to much to early' rush. While observing the results of mega masters like Sebcesoir I found that they usually end up with a three step aproach.

1. Base mesh with surprisingly low poly count where every poly is right were it belongs.
2. higher resolution to build the displacement map.
3. Ultra high resolution to build the high frequency bump/normal map.


When you experiment with the Displacement capable render engines you will quickly encounter that pores and small blemishes are hard if not impossible to achieve with the displacement map. Use a Normal map on top for the 'high frequency' displacements and you will look at the results in awe.

Any other approach leads to Zbrush Blobs. The ones I am trying desperately to get away from...

Lemo


PS:DONT WRITE SO DARN LOUD FIDEL I AM GETTING A HEADACHE FROM IT;)

[Bobina]

Hahaaa elarcano you're a funny guy.

i feel your pain man. I'm also a newbie & am in the process of creating a dragon (trust me to start with something 'easy' like that!). There's a cool thread on CG Talk where the guy creates new poly mesh 3ds from hidden parts of his mesh & then subdivides from there. It actually works pretty damn well. You can go up to 6 mil or so polys for the head alone.

Check it out: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=1875716&mode=linear#post1875716

Otherwise great model. Am very impressed for a first try!

Keep up the good work. Looking forward to future posts

[elarcano]

Hi ya folks!

Slocik:
Theres no easy way to fix your detail problem. I think you schould go on working on what you have, without adding new polys. Lets say that there's a little voice inside my head that says that somehow I can over come this issue... Oh! It my stuburn side

laber and lemo:
I've been trying out your recommendations... although it's kinda hard for someone who doesn't even know what UV means or stands for

Bobina:
It seems we share a South American sense of humor... AT LAST SOME HUMOR RECOGNITION!!!!!!
Thanks for the words of support and the link... I'll have to re-re-re-re-re-re-re-read it

I also wanted to thank -again- Jason, Woody and Lemonnado for helping me in a more one to one way -no! not in the way you're think of-

Oooook, here I go...

Remember post #41? -The before, during and after PM issue- well, this time I tried using the bump viewer material -which I imagine simulates what your texture will look like in another app ¿?

I created a gray texture (R128 / G128/ B128) with a 4028 height and width -the highest resolution-
And then -I'm not sure for what- I pushed the AUVTiles... went to PM and with a grey tone (R226 / G226 / B226) -a very light grey- did some test like the last time (post #41)

These are the results -the good old shoulder again-:


Basic Structure 12 copy.jpg

It got fairly good details... so this method seems to work even with me... now that's all in ZB, I have to see how goes within another app -oh Lord! Another headache-

I'm still thinking that maybe splitting the model could be a good solution, that way each separate part can have more poly count... hmmmm... still have to experiment more... maybe splitting the mesh and the bump map method could give me what I'm looking for -huh!-

I hope this is usefull for anyone... waiting for someone to correct my nonesense again

PS lemo:
I'm font-aly deaf

[DanRoberts]

elarcano ... u are one very funny guy :) ... this thread has to be one of my most favorite threads ever posted at ZBC. Well at least the thread that made me laugh the most :)



Dan

[elarcano]

Now this is the great thing about not been known for doing good 3D models... you can dissapear for more than 2 months and nobody notice it hahaha... I could of started a new thread and say the "I'm new to 3D" routine all over again

So, I got to the part I wanted to tackle the problem with my model and understand things a bit more... so I went to scratch -literally- and doing some "design improvements"

SO! here's my first base mesh in XSI -and yes, I know, it's not the cleanest mesh you've ever seen- It's 5630 polys and according to some generous insight that's a pretty good base mesh count


Base Ezequiel 1.jpg

Base Ezequiel.jpg



Any comment on the "unclean" mesh will be repaid in the afterlife ;)


Thanks

[cspalak]

hey from one person who remembers ya =P. The model looks good. The more i am sculpting the more I realize how important it is to have those base mesh skills down. Am recently looking into topology and edge flow. It gets kind of confusing haha. Welcome back.

[slocik]

Ignoring how clen the modle is, you really need to fix the hand and the head part i marked :| Especialny the head part, you will geat not too much polys there :| And delete some eages from his belly :] You really would want to make every polygon the same size :D Keep up the good work ;]

Base Ezequiel.jpg

[elarcano]

Hi guys, good to know you're still around :tu:

cspalak:
Thanks for the compliment ;) ZB can create basic mesh through zspheres but I wanted to learn how to make a basic mesh. A lot of people do their basic mesh in another apps and just wanted to go though it. Supposely it gets better results -anyone can comment on it?-

Slocik:
Yes, you are absolutely right... now, the thing is, adding some edges will do the trick or just moving the ones I already have around? Oh! And thanks a lot for the self explanatory image :tu:

Ok, back to XSI... the headackes continues :rolleyes:

Thanks guys ;)

[billrobertson42]

[color=white][size=4]Now this is the great thing about not been known for doing good 3D models... you can dissapear for more than 2 months and nobody notice it hahaha...

I'm glad to see that you're back. I like the form of that model. I think you have a really good base.

[RobLively]

I am quite new at this and anything of value that I add is due entirely to the education that I have gleaned from masters at this such as Glen Southern and the folks Gnomon. Commensurate with that goes that anything stupid I say is my own misjudgement and lack of experience.

With that said:

1) The mesh should only be dense on those areas that require it. i.e those areas that undergo deformation will need the ability to adapt properly to changes in ther anisotropic values. Basically where the skin needs to stretch and deform direction a lot to accomodate movement you need more mesh. So you have too much mesh in the abdomen where little flexing is needed and not enough around the joint areas as slocik points out.

2) One of the variations of the temptation of to much detail to soon is trying to sculpt what should be in the higer subd levels in order to make the base mesh. One of the things that I see in masters base meshes is a very angular and harsh looking base that never the less creates this amazing image of the final. This is quite smooth for a base mesh. Worry less about the final details and get the basic forms and directions right. Squint your eyes where needed. :lol:

I can't agree with others more though. I LOVE your creativity in combining non-traditional forms. Amazing work that I hope to attain someday. As a developer with little artistic talent that is asking a lot :confused:!

---
Best regards,

prometh3us

[elarcano]

cspalak:
Thanks for remembering me.... my mom sometimes shouts out robber when she suddenly sees me in her house... that wouldn't be that bad if I didn't actually live with her! -31 and he still lives with his mom?!!!! Hey! That's the way in my country! -
Well I guess it is better to know how to do a good base mesh just in case someone commissions you to do a model from scratch... and it's kinda fun and not that confusing -after 200 hours spent on one model -

slocik:
Let's see if it's better this time Again, thanks for the pointers

billrobertson42:
I really never left, I was just busy with the other image posted in my signature. Thanks for the welcome, always good to speak/type to all of you and thanks for the support

RobLively:
First of all, thanks for breaking things in a very clear way and from what I've read you've been doing very well you're homework
Regarding the amount of polys used to make a base mesh I think it comes to a personal preferences and some objective needs -which I'm unaware of -
As I said before -in another thread- XSI offers you a pretty good full body base mesh and it goes up to 5000 and something polys, but then I saw a few day a go a good full body base mesh in the forum -odhinn's thread (http://zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=24940&highlight=base)- that was 1700 polys... and there is no very big difference between them, meaning that the higher poly base mesh is not all that more detailed.
On the other hand, the very kind Lemmonado pointed out from personal experience and from forum entries pointed out this little chart:

Lopoly about 5-6K
Mid about 10-20K
High about 100-150K
So I imagine that it all comes down to animating the model from the lowest poly count using normal maps, displacement maps, etc.
If anyone cares to give some input about this, please feel free to do so

Ok, this took me a fair amount of time... around 200 hours -literary speaking- to get the base mesh I'm happy with -Man! Am I gonna land BIG times on the CG world or what -


Good Base Ezequiel Front.jpg

Good Base Ezequiel Right.jpg



So, I think it's time to take this guy to ZB -finally!-

As always, comments and critics are very welcome

Thanks for hanging around

[x-titan]

Great work, and good job on correcting the topology :) I think there are still a few kinks but nothing major. I think it's time for ZB too :)

Keep us posted

[slocik]

Nice work on the topology, i see you lerned a lot :] Still You can work a little on the head :D And dont worry, you will spend a lot more time on things like that :]

[elarcano]

Thanks slocik and x-titan for the topology compliments and critics

I've notice that I tend to stare at whatever I'm doing -in a non-productive way- just staring as an idiot as time goes waaaaaaay by. This has been a thing I've been doing since art school and maybe that is why I'm so danm slow at doing anything... that or it's my low IQ and that I'm slightly retarded... hey! I should put that in my resume... that should get me instant commissions, huh!

Ok, here are some updates on the muscle shapes... still lot of work ahead ... wait a minute... deja vu?


Ezequiel Front.jpg

Ezequiel Right.jpg

Ezequiel 3-4.jpg


Thanks guys for the interest and specially for posting



PS.

He has a very stupid face when seen from the side! hahahaha Yeah! really menacing... I can almost hear his goofy laugh

[KrakenCMT]

Great looking model! I can see this being in a platform video game.

[elarcano]

Thanks Kraken! Your frog model is awesome man
Video game, that would be cool but for now how about an online comic? ... if I ever finish the first model!

Ok, this is getting embarrasing... I'm pretty happy with the new model but as always there are things I can't understand... for example, some of you complimented on the base mesh so I imagine I must of done something right... BUT! What I can't figure out is that the old model when up around 2.5 million polys and the new one went up to 4.3 million polys -for testing purposes-... BUT! Amazingly the old one with less poly count would allow me to do more muscle definition.

The following example is just to show you the differences between the good old shoulder of both models


Poly Comparison.jpg

The new model seems to have bigger polygons than the old one wich doen't allow me to go futher... danm! Deja vu is really kicking me in the... oh well you know where

Is there something I'm not getting? Like a Brain?!!!

Any insights are always welcome

PS.
I wonder if I'm going to be the first one to be thrown out of the community because a boring-not-going-nowhere-useless-time-and-space-consuming-thread?... I still fear Aurick -glup!

[aminuts]

ha...any thread that shows progress is not a boring useless waste of space. besides....any thread that shows the good with the bad and tells us what ya learned along the way shall save some other perhaps the same fate and progress a tad faster than they would have yesterday. So....post on!

and enjoy the learning process....even when ya bump uglies with the wall.....keep going til ya blast thru or climb over...it's all good.

didn't read that far back but what were the starting polys for old and new meshes?

[lemonnado]

The polygons are smaller! Take a good look, and stop hyperventilating, model a paperbag and breath slowly into it... 1.... 2.... 3.... 8-))))))))))))))))))))))).

I am sure... I'd almost BET on it that your tool->display->smooth is to high now!. Also check the display subd level. To high and you have problems. With a mesh that dense... you almost need NO smoothing or subd level setting at all. Lower that Jazz and all the detail goodness will come back! If not.... I have to eat a hat and have to come up with something better.

Greetings!
Lemo


PS: Make a small sphere and 'best render' that with different smoothing settings. So you can see what's going on!

PPS:Where is your orange ;-)...

[slocik]

the polys on the new model are 50-60% smaller from what i can see ;] Meybe the modle is just to small, make it 5x bigger. tool>def>size ;]theres no way you got less polys to work on when you got 5x better base mesh :|

[elarcano]

Hi Guys,

You're right, the polys on the new model are smaller, I've must of have express my self wrong... what I mean is that even the new model has almost the double of polygons I'm still not able to get thoses good old details out.

Aminuts
Thanks for the kind words man, I appreciate it
The thing with the old model is that in my initial steps in ZB I deleted the first SudDiv levels, so I can't remember wich was the lowest poly count but it went up to 2.5 millions. The new model started out with 4265.

lemonnado
Paperbag... good idea... but it doesn't resolve understanding my modeling clumsiness
Thanks for the advise but the thing is that the Dsmooth was at all time at its lowest (0)
I did the sphere test at best render mode


Dif Display.jpg

Of course those (the shoulder and the sphere) were around 52 thousand polys -shoulde's part of the 4 million model-
So I did a test with a sphere that was around 2 millions at best render but there was no problems -as you can see-


Dif Display 1.jpg

So I'm still lost with the detailing

slocik
Again, you're right

Thanks guys for helping, I'd be lost without ALL you're insights I really appreciate it

PS.
Lemo, a orange is more nutrictious than the hat I'll try to make it and post it

[silvaticus]

Very nice thread, elarcano`s questions and his attitude are damn close to mine. So, it seems I have to learn from this thread and maybe I`ll get some answers to questions literally tormenting my mind in the past months.
I`m laso new to 3D and Zbrush is the only program I use therefore I really want to know the answers for the questions popping up here.
Like why does almost everyone make the base mesh in other apps? Is it possible to get the same results in Zbrush? Is it a matter of time, is it more efficient, easier or is it a must?
I can do quite decent sphere models, at low subdivision levels they look promising, they seem to have a future but then they go into oblivion as I see that nothing works well at around 1 million polys (I don`t even hope for more with my crappy PC).
Waiting for this thread to progress and hoping that more and more questions will come up and get an answer.

Elarcano, the model is promising.

[elarcano]

Oooook... between family and romantic duties I haven't been able to get some work on Ezequiel -not that it makes much of a difference progress wise -


silvaticus
Thanks for the interest and you are more than welcome to make any questions that you feel are left aside
Regarding the base mesh issue I'm not the best person who can answer that question but I'm sure someone will anser that one

Ok, here's a very small update. Just changed some proportions: hands are bigger -there goes the lighter-, torso's larger and I finally got rid of that stupid grin



Update.jpg

Update 1 copy.jpg

That's as far as I can get with modeling before I start to get the expanded polys sindrome even at 4367360 -whole model-... so I was flirting with bump map experiments... but! even that I created a grey texture at the highest resolution, I encountered this problem with my Dump map... I mean Bump map :


Dump map copy.jpg

It seem that the resolution isn't enough or that I shouldn't quit my day job... wait a minute... I don't have one

I know it might not be new news but when making your bump map in ZB you can use Zapplink to do so in another app. I have a better control with PS than with ZB's tools -thats just me anyway-

I think bump maps are the way to go from here with this model. A great example of this possibility is Fo0d (http://zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=36175&highlight=elarcano)'s model -excellent by the way-

So if you guys have any info about my little bump map problem... just jump in

[Soyseitan]

Make a 8k,12k or 16k map in photoshop and import it in zbrush as a base. Hope this solves the problem.

[elarcano]

Soyseitan:
I sent you a pm asking you give me some more insight regarding your advise If you want you can post it over here. If not, I'll post what you said so that others that are as green as me can get it

Ok, Since I'm stuck -again- I've been doing some test just to understand some things about the way things work, but one of the things that came to my attention was that I separated the head to see the possibilities with a multimesh. The head alone went up to al most 4 millions and detailing was better -modeling wise- With a grey texture at 4096.

So I did a small test -bump map vs modeling- And it seems that the good old modeling came out with better results...


Bump vs Modeling copy.jpg

although I've been told that bump maps have better results in a render than displacement maps... so there is still a lot to understand and to learn... Oh the hell with Ezequiel

:tu:

[Jason Belec]

Looking pretty good man! This fella is constantly improving!!!! ;) Oh yeah, you're doing pretty good as well....... :lol:

[Tim Leydecker]

Out of curiosity,

did you use an imagealpha that had been compressed earlier?
The bumpmapped dots seem to have "a *.jpg artifacts sub-pattern".
Not the most technically correct term ever chiseled in stone, I know...

In a nutshell, it could be that the alphaimage has a bit of noise
translating directly into the bump, which would actually be a
proof for the delicate quality of the bumpalgorithm used.

In contrast, painting displacement is softer or just filtered more to
avoid cracks or jumps that would be felt disapointing 90% of the time?

At least that´s what I figured sofar from my own fiddlings with ZBrush.
You´re right, could also be a complete bogus but only Pixolator knows...

Cheers

tim

[doron]

obviously, taking your time yield great results :tu: :tu: :tu:

[elarcano]

Jason Belec

Oh yeah, you're doing pretty good as well....... :lol: Aaaaah... nothing like sarcasm my friend... it's the breakfast of unemployed champions ;)
Good to "see" you around :tu:

Tim Leydecker

did you use an imagealpha that had been compressed earlier? Nop -or not that I know of- I created a gray R128 G128 B128 texture -for my Dump map- and took it into PS and exported it back to ZB as a PSD -native PS format- So as far as I understand that shouldn't affect the quality :confused:
I'll try to do more test and reseach -since modeling is of limits for now :D- I'll keep in mind the "*.jpg artifacts sub-pattern" issue :tu:

doron
Thanks a lot buddy :tu: -that's exactly what I try to convince my self late at night when I cry my self to sleep :p-

No image to share yet, but I just received Soyseitan's answer...



Re: Bump map question
Quote:
Originally Posted by elarcano
Hi Soyseitan,

I was just writting to you first of all to thank you for your post on the possible bump map solution and because to clarify it with you.
When I take the bump map to PS I should make it either 8k, 12k or 16k... by that you mean that I take it to PS and in image size I should get it up to 8 or 12 or 16 points in height and width with a 72 resolution and then import it to ZB as a texture?

Thanks and sorry for bothering you

Fidel

NP.
Yep, that's what I meant....except that 16k is a resolution of 16384 pixels x 16384 pixels, 8k is 8192 etc. My laptop with 2 gb ram crashes mostly at 16k textures while testing, but 8k should go fine. Good luck.

Well, after doing some deatil test to use Ezequiel with a 8192 in PM and then snapshoting it to change the the texture to 16384 -so I can compare detail qualities- ZB goes bonkers. It just crashes. I'll try to see if Sophia (My PC) can handle a 16384 texture alone in the canvas.
I'll try to post later.

Thanks everybody for posting :tu: It really is the difference between getting some good insights and just staring at the computer wondering if you were born in the wrong time :D. I think I would have done well in the midieval times being a blacksmith... although I would probably be sending messenger pigeons asking about what temperature to use, about metals and which is the best anvil to use... ok... I probably would have just died of the bubonic plague :o

PS

Sophia (My PC) Oh yeah, I've got that kind of time on my hands :cool:

[Soyseitan]

:) Have fun with this amazing app!

[aminuts]

ok my plagued zblacksmithing friend....

don't worry you'll get it.....less time thinking negatively and more time pulling hair out should get ya up and running in no time.


....one question....does she talk back?