Art Skill?

[Moweddp]

Hey, I was thinking about starting up and trying to model some stuff and learn the programs and such to become a good modeler, but, I can't draw on paper very well. I can draw decent, but nothing good at all, and pictures I see of model make people look almost REAL. Now is making a model really that much art, as it is knowing how to use the program and just knowing what a nose looks like, and shaping it like that. If I try to draw a nose, comes out funky looking, if I model it and have all the diminensions I feel maybe I can have a better understanding and it would come out better. I was hoping an experienced and skilled modeler who can't draw for his life would step up and tell me I can do this regardless of my artistic ability. I have some great ideas for models after I learn enough to do it, just hoping my art ability will allow it! :(

[sparty]

"you can teach a monkeyhow to use a 3d program" I bet I heard my professors say that a 1000 times =)
Maya, zbrush, or any 3d program is just a tool.
Sure, you can bring referance into a 3d program and basically copy it. But trust me, its not going to look right until you understand what your copying.
I dont think you have to be an extremely skilled artist. But a good understanding of the human form is very important.
I started learning 3d a little over a year ago. At that time, I considered myself to be a decent 2d artist (nothing professional), since then, ive been working on both my 2d and 3d. Ive feel like each skill has helped the other. One thing I would deffinately recomend is learning anatomy. Grab an anatomy book at the local bookstore, and start memorizing the names of the bones and muscles, and start making tons of sketches.

My advise would be to start working on both 3d and 2d, and undertsand that its going to take time to progress.

Good luck to ya! =)

[darko999]

I agree, 3D programs are just tools.
You have to learn how to walk before you start running.
Good luck.
;)

[VVDFX]

I'm new to Z-brush, coming from a Special make-up effects background. so Sculpture is a alot of what i do.

when I got the program I created things that looked like things i created when I was first learning how to sculpt. VERY similar. I saw this, and relized that its alot like sculpting, because it looked so much like what i started out with so many years ago I new it was similar....just totaly diffrent for me. sculpting with a pen is pretty wacky at first if you come from a traditional sculpture background.

But this didnt take me as long to get down, I quickly started to pick up on this new "tool" I was useing to sculpt with.

the fact that I have some knowladge of anatomy and the face is what helped me, if I didnt know any of that then id still be at stage one.
so my real world sculpting definatly helped me use Z-brush to a point where I can actually make something that looks like something.

but I also noticed that my modeling also resembled my Sketches a LOT, so if you can draw, or if you can sculpt....then you should pick up Z-brush fairly quickly. I think if you where totally new to art and anatomy right off the bat things will probably go alot slower.

So I agree 100%, Z-brush is just another "tool" I use to do my art with. weather its a sculpting tool, pencil, or my wacom I'm really just being an artist and these "tools" I use allow me to do so.

[Antimorph]

You can do it. Art is a myth. Art is Math. In fact the very best art in the world is usually more efficiently communicated using a Venn diagram. All alternate opinions are conspiracy. :)

[darko999]

I do not agree that art is a myth.
It's 10% talent and 90% hard work.
But that 10% is what separates the best from the rest.

;)

[darkripper83]

Hey, I was thinking about starting up and trying to model some stuff and learn the programs and such to become a good modeler, but, I can't draw on paper very well. I can draw decent, but nothing good at all, and pictures I see of model make people look almost REAL.

Since I work in 3d, my 2d drawing skill It's going better and better :)

[Buckie]

I think it's a bit more than 10% to be honest...

But agree that any piece of software is just a tool to create with, the rest is down to the individuals skill...

[Kircho]

The flower does not speak


Antimorph I'm so appriciative of your words I think I could kiss you! :cool:
More correctly however, Art should be treated as a Science - subject to logic and the Law of Causality/Identity - In both forms as a craft and an emotion-evoker. It is important that it is so, for in what other way can a man experiance his ideals and asperation in a single glimpse? - and conversely, have them utterly destroyed and twisted?

What do you mean by talent darko ? Talent as it applies here is an enhanced mental capacity - for Art it will consist of a close to photographic memory - And an ability to analyse and integrate data with ease and great accuracey, this applies both to ones craft(methodologically) and ones 'emotion-evokivness'( philosophically). ( If one is dilligent one is bound to reach similar qualities, to that of the 'gifted artist', but in a longer peroid of time.)

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Moweddp, your inhability to draw comes, at first, from a lack of methodology/logic/math and secondarily, as a result, a lack of proper knowledge of your subject.
Not because there is some inhate force disabling you from drawing with a pencil. (unless ofcourse you have paraplegia)

It is not a simple task to reproduce a 3d figure on a 2d canvas - one must translate perspective - volume - shading - + - on a 2d medium. Enter 3d graphics and most of the hardships will dissapear, you are faced with one problem only - the reproduction of volume. At this point, for that reason, and because Zbrush does it so very well - I can say that - " Yes you, most anyone for that matter, if they know the basics of Zbrush and are able to view reality, can create 3d-X ".....I was that 'anyone' when I started with Zbrush.

The problem, as you are bound to find out, is that to produce a "nose" in 3d, even though the process is very much simplified in Zbrush, you will require a proper methodology - For looking and For doing - to create it, not only accuratley but also consistantly- and more importantly to reach a level of creative autonomy - proffesionalism.
Note - lots of people tend to overate knowledge of anatomy - I recommend against it as a first step.( Proportions is just for starters)

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" The Zen Master(sic) glances down at the younge monk sitting before him...there is silence..." Do you wish to ask me any questions younge one(sic)" he exclaims, awaiting the oppourtunity to dispatch with orders for a new pot of rosemary tea.
" Masta ," reservedly the younge monk begins " what is to be my first step then Masta?".
The Zen Master squints wearily ( sitting in the lotus postion half his life has led to arthritis in his knees) and begins to stroke his long white beard in show of satisfaction for his younge apprentice,
" Take your donkey and one weeks supplies to ZeeBeeCee (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=31071) next you must visit the all powerfull and wise Andrew Loomis.....Lastly remember this saying, for it is the key to your success - The Flower does not speak."


Good Luck,
Kircho

[1stbrother]

practice makes perfect but i'm not totally convinced that can be applied to art (3D or other).

i don't see talent as just a jumpstart before those without catch up by trying hard.

[Mukkinese]

Draughtsmanship is a skill, like any other. Anyone who can write can learn to draw and draw competantly. Talent may give some a start, but it's attitude that rules with skills; if you practice your skill it will improve -simple as that.

It's not the method that makes one artist more memorable than another, but 'creativity', something indefinable and subjective that 'strikes a chord' with the viewer. What one person sees as 'creative' leaves another cold.

Lots of people will give lots of (sometimes conflicting) advice, but take it all with a pinch of salt and do what you really enjoy doing, if you are lucky you will find others who enjoy the same things and appreciate your 'creativity'.

In my opinion, the two best 'rules' for becoming an exceptional artist are; work at your art everyday and treat that work like play.

[1stbrother]

i think we need to define drawing and being an artist.

[Hami]

http://stickman3d.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ifX.jpg

[pixelsoul]

:D Haha great toon..

[Wordsmith]

Moweddp


As you can already discern from this string, when you throw out the word ‘Art’, it evokes many, many responses and opinions.


As for my ‘2 cents’, I have always felt that Art equated to a vision, and an Artist was someone that could, though whatever means they chose, convey that vision in a moving or thought provoking fashion.



BUT….. If I may try to interpret the question you asked, I do not believe that one necessarily needs to be able to ‘draw’ in order to ‘model’. Just as someone need not be skilled at painting in order to sculpt.



Having said that, I believe that Zbrush is a tool that is so remarkably intuitive to how most of us wish to create, that it can unleash the ‘artist’ in you much easier and faster than most other medium/tools.



Whether your creations are breathtaking, or simple, is only up to you. Everyone will react to your ‘art’ differently. You can count on that.



What Zbrush gave to me, above anything else, is the ability to do any task a multitude of different ways. I am not limited to creating something in 2d, or 3d. I have all the shades of gray in-between.



Just my humble opinion.



Word.

[Moweddp]

Thanks a lot for everyone's feedback on the matter.

I meant my drawing ability, not art in general, I am bad like that heh.

Here is my first work in project, it is coming out bad because I don't know the features of the face well, and where to cut and make rises or falls in the proportions, this effects my drawing. The nose was easy to make, it's just features now that I must get right! :(

http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=myfirstface0jk.png

My knowledge of arts doesn't stretch very far, I am in 10th grade, and take no art classes, just technology. In my school you choose a side basically, Art classes (drawing and such), and technology classes (anything with computers). Now for someone who wants to go into the gaming industry and produce things such as models and textures, which should I go with? Or should I talked to my councellor about being in both sides, I feel this might help.

[Kircho]

Again we move back to - Art is a supernatural - "subjective" - phenomenon - and it does'nt really matter what or how you paint. Thats because emotions are treated in the same way, and art by its very nature serves one purpose only - to evoke emotion. Furthermore, your art should not be governed by somebodies - rational or irrational - opinion off it.

1stbrother - Then? - the proper defenition of talent is - A natural aptitude for certain mental and physical abilities. It is not merely a jump start - you will NEVER be as good as them - you can only come close - at least at this point in our phyisico-medical knowledge.( There are acceptionally few of these people)

Mukkinese - Yours are some very dangerous words - : First, practice without a consciencous and exact methodology, unless you do thesame thing for the whole of your life and memorise every single action and attribute of your subject(and that is still under question), does not make perfect. The purpose for practice is to automatize a certain process - but only after you have discovered how and why you should paint/draw..etc
Or in general you must know to think - effectively and efficiently.

Secondly, creativity is the act of observation and next, as a result, a process of invention (in art the application of value judgement). The originality of the piece and its potency in relaying emotion is, again, determined by the breadth of his experiance - his ability to integrate it - his clearity of thought - inpart his particular talent - - it is a marriage of his craft and philosopical view point. Moreover the emotions that the viewer feels can just as accuretely be described /defined - based on the theme - the style - the composition and certain other factors, and with a proper philosophical/phsycological understing of emotions - their causel depandancies.(They do exist they do no arise supernaturally from nothingness)


The accptional artist is acceptional regardless of someone elses opinion - and does not wait for others to justify his work. If he knows and understands the above ideas - and if he is deeply in love with reality and the fuctions that bring about its existance - his standard of thinking and doing - - then he is acceptional, for he is in the action of creating REAL - proper - Art, and he knows it. Same applies to scientific and philosophical work.

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Kircho
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Ps - Unfortunantly what you need to learn to do is think objectively/logically, something your highschool cannot teach you, merely becasue they don't know how to do it either( just look at how they organise the curriculum). I advise that this is the first step you should take, indipendantly of your school. Then you will not have to ask us how to persue your career aspirations :)

[Manixolated]

One thing that should be concidered when trying to define art (or just explain it) is that all good art and science sprouts from one thing, mystery.
That's why all the popular movies and books deal with emotions like love, a very mysterious concept indeed.

Art and science are in my opinion humanity's 2 greatest tools for navigating the world.
Somewhere in our evolution we found that information is a good thing, we invented art and science to explore the mysterious and gain more information about our world and our selves.

Visual art should be a box of information that is opened when a person looks at it, how effective the information is transfered depends on the artist (skill, experience, knoledge, whatever you think it takes to be a good artist).
This doesn't always mean using the lowest common denominator to get you'r point across, allot of artists I think want their work to speak to each person individualy, it's in the eye of the beholder as they say.

[Kircho]

Love is no mystery Manixolated, you just have to observe reality to find the answer. The fact that it remains a mystery in popular culture is on account of those novels you spoke about and a few bad philsophers and psycoanlysts, who at there inhability to define it, pronounced it undefinable.

Moreover art and science, sides of the same coin, do not arise because of "mystery", they exist to give power - one in the realm of the physical the other in the realm of the abstract - or purely mental - the human emotion. POWER to gain perfection - Power over nature.

[Moweddp]

Hey, updated my monster a bit! He looks a bit angrier! (Which is what I wanted)

He used to look all happy if you didn't see post above, couldn't get an angry feel for him. A bit better now.

I don't know how to do the teeth well, so I just removed them so it didn't make entire thing look horrible, same with eyes lol.


http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/1333/mysecondface5vb.th.png (http://img399.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mysecondface5vb.png)

[Mukkinese]

Kircho, I don't remember saying practice without methodology, nor that we need others validation? It's nice to be appreciated though LOL!

Is it possible to learn without a planned approach?

Of course it is, though less effeciently than otherwise might be the case.

I disagree that we must know why we do what we do 'before' we can learn, concious thought is only part of the process.

I doubt many start without some idea (however vague) of what they want to do or, conversly, have a strict plan of steps they want to take and in what order. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle-ground and are led by the enjoyment of what we are doing.

Passion for what we do is the driving force and that should be our own, experience brings knowledge (whether concious or 'habitual'), practice refines our aim until we hit our targets more and more often.

Creativity is, in my opinion, impossible to define. It is a vague concept that seems to be entirely subjective.

[Manixolated]

Kircho when I say "information" I don't just mean what you know but also what you've experienced.
When you watch a movie, read a book or look at a picture you are having an experience you otherwise would not have had, this information cannot be gained simply by observing things and the notion that there is an answer to be gained I don't believe to be true.
Knowing what love is may be a satisfying thing but it cannot compare to actually loving something, the experience is what people are after.

Human beings will always want to experience things like love and hate without putting themselves in danger (emotional or otherwise) and so some art has become a sort of fake reality for us to take information from, information that is to used in the real world.

Moweddp sorry if this is getting a little off topic or the topic is becoming broader than you intended, we're just having fun.

Picture is looking good btw.

[Kircho]

Mukkinese -

"..if you practice your skill it will improve -simple as that." - yes you did, and you repeat it in your most recent post. Notice also that I specify - " consciencous and exact methodology ."

"...What one person sees as 'creative' leaves another cold," and " if you are lucky you will find others who enjoy the same things and appreciate your 'creativity'."
You have implied it and not noticed, most likely because you have left your concpet formation to habit and your non-concept - " creativity ".

Yes the process is less efficient - slower - frustrating - incomplete/innacurate - ones ability to recall and retain the information is limited - one cannot reach any great level of proffesionalism. I take pleasure from overcomming all of these issues - any other assertion, as to what joy is, is a rationalisation and should be thrown out.

"Why?", is the most important question - since if we do not objectively identify the action as valuable/non-valuable to our lives - we are wasting our tme, and our motivation and work habbits will suffer accordingly. That most people do not have a proper reason and do not hold a consciencious exact methodology is not a qualifier for your methods correctness. Again, joy is to be had from the success of achievment - achievment of inefficiancy as I describe it above is nothing to be joyfull about.

Lastly, let me just say, that I have been through the whole process of just leaving it to habit. I was able to produce nice works (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=22506), but the process was always tedious, pragmatic and strangely unrewarding in the end - nor were my efforts consistent and somehow all my works looked very similar - same mistakes, similar features and structure etc. - . My joy, when it did come, was only superficial,with basis in others opinions and assertions or some silly rationalisation. In the end I became so frustrated I gave it up all together - a midlife-sculpting-crisis :D - I solved the problem just recently.

As I said and will clarify here again - yes there are subconcious processes in any actione one takes - and automatisation is an important step, but it is wise to deligate to these processes only simplistic and repatative tasks - not the whole theory of translating 3d volume into 3d models - or even half of it - and most definently not before you have formed it explcitly.

I hope you are still younge like me and will realise the truth in this - for it applies to all areas of ones life - and if not, well you have the next life to figure it out again :)

Kircho


"Passion for what we do is the driving force and that should be our own, experience brings knowledge (whether concious or 'habitual'), practice refines our aim until we hit our targets more and more often."
HOLLLAAA :eek: this is way off - Knowledge is only explicit and conceptual - it may be automatised but not before it is conceptualised. Emotions, alike, cannot be used as standards for action unless they are understood explicitly - if any other course is taken devestation will ensue.

[havran]

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/1333/mysecondface5vb.th.png (http://img399.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mysecondface5vb.png)

man, this thread got philosophical fast :lol:

hey Moweddp, looks like you are already doing pretty well with the sculpting :tu:

as for anatomy and learning how to draw, there are some good books that are not too expensive by Jack Hamm, Andrew Loomis and others ... you can probably view a couple of the Loomis books online

when I was a teenager I learned a lot just by analyzing and trying to copy illustrations that I liked (mostly science fiction and fantasy illos) ... lines, ways of shading, color schemes, how to simplify

as for school, sure, talk with a counselor about the art plus computers question

[Ron Harris]

very interesting words and a cool thread here....

my 2 cents.....

zbrush 2 is a totally different prog/tool than it was when I discovered it with version 1. Made some kewl pics (I thought, but in retrospect I was wrong ...lol) in version 1. Others made actually kewl pics. Then we got a better tool on down the line..ie version 2.....night and day....

The difference is huge...no comparison.....like a carpenter would have had a hand saw in version 1 and was able to build a decent house...sound and stable but a tedious labor of love to create.....then comes version 2, the electric power saw....a more formidable tool.....now comparitively you can build your dream home in a fraction of the time.....you still need to know the basics to achieve your goal and know how to use that tool....but if you study and skill yourself you will be able to build your dream home.....(redneck analogy here)....

Art..hmmm it's art to the people who view it and have same interests and like it....or else...as was said in so many words leaves the viewer cold....beauty is in the eye fo the beholder.....and the clique of viewers denotes what the majority wants and it is now art....now if other peoples come along at a later date and view the works of the "non artist" that was not praised because of not fitting into the mainstream, and that new group finds the works pleasing they then become art....

For the personal artist that does it for the passion of doing it......for whatever reason...... they don't care if you or I like the work or not...that is not their reason for doing it.....

Practice can make perfect....or at least better.....if something is not totally anatomically correct, then it becomes "stylized" ....but to me that is ok...someone at some point will come up with a new term to describe a person's work if it doesn't fit.....

I have been investing gazzillllions of hours since I first found Zbrush in 2001 and still feel like I have barely begun to scratch the surface of this tool....so far to go.....Monkeys do not have that diligence...

I zbrush because I feel the compulsion to create....and if not with z then with pencil and paper or in writing fiction.....why do it? hellifino, other than it feels good to create....and something within makes me wanna do it....

Model, texture, sculpt, paint, work on making alphas, lighting a scene....the list goes on....each of those areas can be specialized, can take forever to learn, can be rewarding, and used in unison can make one helluva zbrush pic...

Anyone can draw.....too many books out there prove that....step by step how to books....bought a few to better help me teach my children some of the basics....at least works that I like......basic shapes and lines and you have a head....translate that into zbrush and you have a 3d model.....that is the allure for me also with zbrush....the power to rapidly create something from nothingness.....

have fun, study and practice and a simple 3d sphere with some holes punched into it will soon take proper shape and become a head ....tweak it and it will become a better head.....practice and it will become a good head.....add proper eyes and teeth and it will become a very good head......texture it up and use the right materials and lighting and it will be a d@mned fine head....do it again and again and again .....and you will be able to do most anything in Zbrush....make a body..add a background....and keep the zgods happy and do somethign a little different from everyone else and you can become a z deity and make the top row and hopefully get noticed in the "business" , make a name for yourself and make some $$$$$$$$$ and live happily ever after :)

ok there was some humor in that but you hopefully get what I am saying....

Though I have an art background via the family business growing up....I am currently an out of work starving artist like most everyone else I know...Mine is a simple layman's point of view....Just thought I would add my opinion since they are free to give and share...

good luck and practice practice practice...but foremost have fun and enjoy what you do..no matter what it is....

Merry Christmas All!!!!

Ron
catfishmn@aol.com

[Mukkinese]

Practice improves skill - it is that simple.

There is nothing in this statement that argues for or against the use of a methodology.

I'm sorry, your second point isn't clear. Are you saying I implied that we need the validation of others? If so then that is incorrect, as I expanded in my second post; it is nice to have the appreciation of others - not neccessary.

Your interpretation of motivation is interesting, but we will have to disagree on the point of concious knowledge of our motivations being a pre-requisite to learning.

I also believe (whether you think it wise or not) many, if not most people, proceed on a basis of emotion rather than logic;- we tend to do what we enjoy and avoid what we don't, with little concious regard to logic.

While it may be true that unconcious or emotional motivation may lead us into problems from time to time, we are not Vulcuns. To approach every part of life as an excercise in logic is beyond the patience or needs of most. Too much hard work.

[Kircho]

Mukkinese I'm sorry you did'nt pick up on what I was trying to say, but after your last post I decided to stop any further attempt at explanation.

These words, of your last post specifically, are so dangerous - so VERY putrid, that I'm physically shaken as I write this. I'm afriad I can't and won't continue any further dilaogue with you. ( Lookup the meaning of putrid its not there simply as a means to inflemation)

Kircho

[Antimorph]

Breathe in, Breathe out.

Mukkinese, you taste very like solipsist. The irony of the Vulcan jibe will probably not have escaped Kircho.

Kircho, you're not alone, I very much admire your willingness to explore meaning.

[Antimorph]

"ZBrush, or any 3d program is just a tool."
"I agree, 3D programs are just tools."
"So I agree 100%, Z-brush is just another "tool" I use to do my art with."
"I believe that ZBrush is a tool"

ZBrush is more than this, it's a language, an approach, a methodology, a beacon, it's probably deeper than you are. There is something very elemental about the way ZBrush exposes complexity to be the combination of primative objects and transformations which are themselves initialized as simple operations on basic data structures. ZBrush is a tool but it is not just a tool.

[Mukkinese]

LOL!

Kircho, I really think you are taking all this too seriously and reading far more into my comments than is there.

My ideas are hardly challenging nor do they subvert reason. This isn't revolution I'm suggesting, in fact the advice I have given here is both liberal and non-specific.

Antimorph, can anything (even ourselves) truly be known? Few people give such things much thought and why should they? Most of us would rather just get on with life.

The 'Vulcan' comment was not directed at anyone nor meant as a 'jibe'; - that is your interpretation of it, not mine.

[Antimorph]

"Most of us would rather just get on with life."

I recognize that this position is unassailable. I withdraw.

[spaz8]

I wasn't sure I wanted to post in this thread but i think i'd like to make a point and get back to what Moweddp was asking.

I think what he's calling "art skill" is just skill with traditional mediums like pencil/paper, paint, clay, wood.

I definately agree that traditional art skills translate well into the digital relm quite well. I've heard it said that the computer is just an "expensive paintbrush", which I agree.

The reason the ability to draw well, paint well, sculpt well are traits studios like to see is that it implies a level of artistic competance. Its the fastest way to judge talent/ability/competence.

Drawing, painting, sculpting hones ones ability to "see" the world. Your also developing your fine motor skills which i think 80% of ppl use a tablet in zbrush, or should. The ability to really understand what your looking at is a skill often overlooked and takes a life time to develop. Just as its said "to really know something, is to teach it" i'd say to really understand something visually would be to reproduce it. This is where things like life drawing, painting and sculpting the world around you can only improve the work you create in the computer when you use these same skills of visual analysis.

Someone who can draw or sculpt well should pick up zbrush rather quickly.

[1stbrother]

love threads like this. just a matter of time until someone gets fired up (although, i don't think this thread has reached the point for someone to be upset).

[havran]

spaz8, thank you ;)

as for "learning to see": last evening I stood in a parking lot for 5 or 10 minutes ... maybe people thought I was a derelict or in a trance, but I was looking at a scene, branches against a subtly colored sunset, analyzing the elements and thinking how to paint something like that

a cool moment in my teenage years was when my Mom checked out "My Name is Asher Lev" by Chaim Potok for me to read ... there is a scene when young Asher is sitting in someone's office, looking at the raindrops flowing down the window, thinking how to draw them, and I thought "wow, there are other people like me" (a big fan of rain trails on car windows and colored lights on wet streets)

Moweddp, I'm starting to think that YES you should learn to draw reasonably well, at least so that you can do concept sketches

don't reinvent the wheel -- see how other people have translated 3d into 2d drawings and paintings -- learn some tricks and elements from them -- don't worry about making exact copies, think of it more as doing cover versions of songs

if you know how to maintain your computer, how to install software, and how to learn software apps by reading manuals or the help system or Googling, you probably don't need to be in the computer track at school

it's good that you have a career goal as an organizing principle :tu:

but of course, don't limit yourself to learning just what you need for monsters and environments, etc. -- learn more than you need, according to your own tastes -- spend some time looking at galleries that are outside of your main interests -- maybe you can bring some new flavors to the kitchen

however the official training turns out, remember that you can and should add your own studies throughout life, including now -- don't turn it into drudgery, though ;)

and ... don't neglect your social and physical health ;)

[Kircho]

Havran:

man, this thread got philosophical fast :lol:Don't see whats so amusing about it? Perhaps you think that philosophy is a useless invention of man, that serves no other purpose then to complexify, beyond understanding, any given situation it is applied to?

1stbrother :

someone gets fired up (although, i don't think this thread has reached the point for someone to be upset).If by "fired up" you are implying - an irrational outburst in the midst for a battle of supremacey, you are wrong to have applied it here.

There is a battle however, the battle is for the right and proper ideas.Because it is waged on publicly accesible media, the battle becomes of great importance: since it is with such simple beginnings that conclusions form and propogate in to culture - of life - of education.

Furthermore, this is a thread that coveres a very important and fundumental qestion to the artist - scientist - philosopher - What is knowledge and what is the proper way to attain it.

For these reasons, and the fact that ideas are the life-blood of human action, I take ideas very seriously. The fact that you have no yet realised the errors that have been commited, and how destructive they are, is exactly what I was trying to avoid. - I suggest you think again.

Kircho

[havran]

oh now, our tenth-grader was asking questions about craft ... no need to drag memes and cosmoconceptions in at this stage

[JPalmer]

moweddp.........

Keep going kid, you're starting out great. Don't let some of the pontificators scare you off. nothing, and I mean nothing, will do more to advance you than practice. Learn to draw, definately, but also learn the technology. For pure artistic release, drawing skills can lay your foundation. For business, my Bosses don't pay six figure incomes to guys like me because I can draw. They want people that can learn the new programs and streamline processes. Sorry, but that's the reality of it.

Kircho, ,,,, lighten up Dude, for someone that's only Twenty One (and with all the vast life experience that brings), you've got allot of anger issues. The only lesson I see you've taught our young friend here, is that 'He who shouts the loudest, wins'.

Life's the journey man, NOT the destination.

[Kircho]

just for the record I'm not angry - JPalmer you applied the wrong archetype ,"Dude". Secondly I suggest you read - actually read it - the progression of this thread. Your conclusion - "The only lesson I see you've taught our young friend here, is that 'He who shouts the loudest, wins." - is false.

Kircho

[lemonnado]

Orient yourself on results. If you see a piece of work you like, go look who made it, contact him/her and I am sure you will get an answer which is worth a lot to you. Judge advice against results, not by words.

Good luck!
Lemo

[havran]

I was starting to think that Kircho was a little full of himself, but I guess I should give him credit for his sense of humor ...

[Kircho]

Hehe...You beat me too it, I had this prepared lastnight :

Dear Havran and Mukkinese I wish you a joyfull christmas(sic)
and a happy new year(sic). I hope you enjoy my present.
Yours Sincerely,
Kircho
SnHnSn.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:zb_insimg%28%2723761%27,%27SnHnSn.jpg%27,1,0% 29)

[Hami]

:lol:finally the lines of communication are open; a picture says a thousand words:lol:

Happy Boxing Day!

[1stbrother]

this doesn't seem as eloquent as your last few posts.

[Mukkinese]

LOL! I've been enjoying my Christmas and will continue to enjoy the rest of the holidays (indeed, the rest of my life), thank you Kircho, I wish you the same.

Do you really think what has been said here is evil?

[Kircho]

Yes I really - jus so its clear - really, really - think that what you have said here is evil. Anything against life, against man - man as he should be - is evil.

Kircho

[aurick]

Let's please keep the discussion civil and on the topic of the original post. If outbursts and finger-pointing continue, we'll have to start deleting posts. (Which is something we really, really hate so please don't force us into it. ;))

[Kircho]

..something we really, really hate so...Hehe...Ok we are definently off topic - but - uncivil and unruly, never :D

[Moweddp]

Oh how confused I am right now! :(

I just wanted to know if drawing skill, as far as pencil/pen on a peice of paper and how well I could draw, would effect my 3D art. I have looked into some things, and realized many high end 3D artists draw there pictures from two views, and upload it onto their computer, and import it into maya/3DS Max/zbrush, and use it as reference.

This leads me to a new question, where will I get my reference from if I can't draw my own reference, and, is it easy to, let's say sculp the face I have in my mind without a drawing as reference to mold points to in 3DS Max or Maya (the two programs I plan on using to start models, and use zbrush to detail)?

Thanks, Dan (First time I am using real name! lol)

[Mukkinese]

Well, you can use photo-reference or even another artists work - just for practice (though I would stress -just for practice, try and respect another artists copyright). There are many sources of non-copyrighted photo-reference online try Googling for some.

As others have suggested, putting some time in learning how to draw, wouldn't be wasted effort. This doesn't mean that you have to take that skill to a photo-realiastic level, many artists are 'cartoonists' some are 'photo-realists' most fall somewhere in-between these extremes. In fact I would suggest starting your modeling with simple cartoon-like images.

As you become more and more comfortable with the medium you can add levels of detail until you find what suits you.

Not all 3D artists draw their images from two views and load them as reference, I'm sure many start from simple concept sketches/doodle and others (who are confident with the medium) will, on occasion, just dive straight in and 'doodle' in 3D.

Don't forget you can save anything you do in Zbrush as an image and use that as reference for further refining your ideas - don't think everything you do is 'all or nothing'. Treat Zbrush like any other medium, you can play around with as many ideas as you like before commiting to one. Save the elements of your work that you like and discard what you don't like.

[havran]

I for one am glad this thread got back on track, and hope that Moweddp found some useful advice here.

But of course I would not object to separate philosophical threads that focused on other particular issues, as long as people took care to discuss ideas and not get personal.

It's clear that some of us may have such different worldviews that we have a difficult time understanding each other at present, and perhaps might never understand each other, but vive la différence

And there might be cases where something is obvious to someone, but they might have some difficulty expressing it to other people, exactly because it seems so self-evident to oneself.

But maybe after some discussion, we might find out that we actually agree about some things more than we first expected, although we express them differently ... and in areas where we don't agree, we might still learn something from each other.

Please let Moweddp have this thread for his questions -- if anyone feels like responding to this post or raising other topics, I believe a new thread would be appropriate.

[Ron Harris]

I just wanted to know if drawing skill, as far as pencil/pen on a peice of paper and how well I could draw, would effect my 3D art. I have looked into some things, and realized many high end 3D artists draw there pictures from two views, and upload it onto their computer, and import it into maya/3DS Max/zbrush, and use it as reference

Dan, some artists here work like that with 2d images for reference. Not all and not all on every project. That is just one way to do it...

FouadB posted yesterday I believe a work in progress...and he appeared to have a reference pic in the background. If you are needing exact scale and stuff a reference pic might be the answer you need.

For me personally, I have always drawn...working with zbrush enhanced my drawings a good bit in my opinion...(I still have a long ways to go though but that is ok). I don't think you ever max out your personal potentional in any medium..you always get better over time, but I don't think I will ever truly be totally happy with anything I do, no matter whether I progress or not..and that to me is a healthy thing.

Practice does not necessarily make you perfect but you will get better, and better and better etc....by practicing.

Have fun and don't make work out of what should be a labor of love. And when working in other mediums, I always think in terms of how I would accomplish a said task in Zbrush...and alot of the techniques for me translate well into those other areas.

Fun thread:tu:

Ron
catfishmn@aol.com