Question for an "expert"

[xixax]

I've found it extremely easy to model something organic in the software. I've even found it easy to model something that wasn't organice, as long as the shapes didn't require an "exact" varied series of arcs etc. I'm hitting a real roadblock though making a samurai helmet. I've been able to do a breastplate, arm peices, and even a decent figure that I'm still "playing" with. The helmet though is kicking my buttocks.

Don't get me wrong, I can get something "ok" out of it, but ok isn't cutting it for me. :)

http://members.iinet.net.au/~morrisrh/pics/helmet2.jpg

Have a look at that image. If someone doesn't mind, how exactly would you go about creating that helmet in zbrush? (sans face mask, that one's a no brainer ;)).

I've actually just purchased the Cinema4DR9 studio package, and to be honest I'm very very tempted to model the helmet in that package instead.

I won't do it in zbrush without zspheres btw, as I can't control the poly count very well and this is going to go into animation. I know about the attractor spheres (and at first was quite excited when I realized I could make disconnected meshes by inserting an attractor sphere between two others, the problem obviously being the way it bends the mesh then... but very very cool for a "walking skeleton" type figure).

If anyone wouldn't mind actually making the attempt to do something similar with zspheres and explain, I'd be exceedingly grateful. :) I don't want someone to do the work for me, I'll obviously redo it (that's not the helmet I want anway, but the methods couldn't be that different to get what I'm after) from scratch, but I definitely need some assistance understanding how we can use zbrush to model objects like this with precision, if that's even possible.

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Side note: We chose Cinema4D Studio over Softimage Essentials. Main reason? Ease of use of the software, power of their "Sketch and Toon" module, and in our opinion quality and stability of the interface. Any thoughts?

[sirquadalot]

Model it in C4D. Import it into ZBrush to add fine detail or give it a more organic sculpt. Don't get me wrong...it is possible to create this helmet in Zbrush, but it will be a combination of multimarked tools...and 2.5D painting etc.. When thinking of ZBrush, you really need to have a good game plan. Is it going to be just one image, or an animation. If it's the second, do it in C4D.

[xixax]

Honestly, that's what I've been leaning towards. I can model a rather "rigid" version of this (Have to learn the modelling tools in C4D, but I'm sure some nice combination of splines +extrudes etc. will get what I'm after), export it into Zbrush, make it feel 'real", and export it back to C4D to texture with BodyPaint 3D.

Like you said, I can see ways to get it using zbrush, but the poly count would be insane, or I'd have a very ugly mesh.

[sirquadalot]

You could also start with a nice base mesh...AlA C4D import into Zb and create the Disp map. Rafi's been bugging me to upgrade to 9.0 maybe early November.

[xixax]

HA! :) Rafi was the person I purchased through. Very good at her job, not too pushy, not lazy either.

[sirquadalot]

She just might get my $$$;)

[Jason Belec]

I really don't see what would be hard about doing that helemt in Zbrush - especially with all the images Pixolator and others have posted over the last few years.

If I can snatch a half hour, I'll whip one up, but negotiations are flying...

[xixax]

The bowl and horns: Exceptionally simple. The difficulty came into the area to each side of the face that "curls" out and the stepping down wider area below the bowl of the helm (that helmet is a bit different from what I was attempting, which is much more like this ).
http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/knights/images/samurai_helmet_250.jpg

The only way to get this that I could come up with gave me a sickeningly low poly count to work with in that region, unless I bumped up the subdivision, which then gave me wayyy too many polys on the bowl. I tried using a "skeleton" approach to laying out "ribs" that were handled with attractor spheres, but again it just didn't look great. It looked "ok" from the front, pretty good really, but spinning it around showed problem areas that can't be worked out, at least not with the way I was handling it.

If you do manage to bust one of these out with zspheres, I'd be very, very interested in your methods. I may even lay some $$ on the line if anyone is up for the challenge of a clean mesh, zsphere version of the helmet with tutorial on how it was done. :)

[Jason Belec]

OK - this is really fast!!

But it's the basis of what you need.

Then add XYZAdjust2 to your scripts tools!! Search this list - I think it's TV-Eyes or Cameyo's script (my apologies) this will allow you to add detail to specific Zspheres once you have the basics setup.

If I get time after the stuff I'm handling over the next day or two I'll finish one off cause I think it will look cool with the toon material.


h.jpg

[xixax]

Look forward to seeing you finish (your toon shader is looking v.good, and it's something dear to my heart :)). Your setup for it is almost identical to what I had going. The same issue rises up: The back of it isn'ta solid and cohesive mesh. I thought I would get around this with another setup that invovled a "centered" spine that branched off into ribs, but found that even though it worked to give me a solid mesh, it created an area with way too many polys down that spinal area. That final method, with the spines, was the closest, but a "clean" mesh is important to me.

aminuts, do you have sketch and toon or is your version pre-8.5? I'm blown away by the S&T toolset.

I was able to get fresnel refraction results in a transparent cube with it even (thanks to a quick tip on cgtalk). Just a test on that here:

http://defiant.alienpod.com/images/transrefrac.jpg

[Jason Belec]

Ahhh, young jedi, you do or do not do, their is no try.

This will do what you want and evenly distribute the polys. Just add as many as you want. Then model the helm and add that cool tuning fork.

This one is really rough, and not ebven symetrical - sorry wasn't concentrating.

Zbrush used to have a feature that made this easier - duplicating, but a bug has kept it out of Z2, so it's a little harder. The 2 pieces just need to be close together, you can use the natural seem to show what appears as welds in the plates.

:lol:

h3.jpg

[aminuts]

I don't have a moment right now to whip up a sample for you but you could model the part you have troubles with the poly count on.....model it then save as a polymesh tool.....then model the rest in zspheres and add the tool to the spheres.....which will require a bit of forethought on your part.

Z2 has a tute built in that shows how to add a tool to your sphere and a way to get the mesh res to match.

This might make it easier to reach your desired design in zbrush although Jason has done a pretty good job from what I have seen.

Anyways, a thought for now or later!

[xixax]

I tried again to get a result that looked right from front, side, top and bottom (or any angle). I can't get the staggered lower plates to push up against the bowl of the helm. to look as if they're attached.

I also tried a method in C4D I hoped would work. Athough in C4D the mesh "looked" right, when I import it in I get odd artifacts and the mesh kind of disintegrates when I go to edit it. I think this is beyond my modelling skills currently, and I'm going to run through a few tutorials on C4D modelling before attempting it again.

[marcus_civis]

helmet2b.jpg
Here's a different method. It's pretty basic but will perhaps give you some ideas.

Cheers,
Marcus

[xixax]

blink

That will work perfectly (other than I get to play around with the mesh to get it to go from ortho to persp, but that's a zbrush issue).

Zbrush comes in to surprise me again. Thanks a ton for the script, going to go watch it again.

[xixax]

marcus_civis,

I just wanted to tell you thanks again. I just finished my "base" mesh for the helm in an insanely small amount of time (I had to slow down the script a bit to catch some of the very very cool things you just taught me).

The method you used is perfect for the base mesh. I can now subdivide once or twice for the displacement version and detail my heart out.

Jason: Thank you also, the method you used was very similar to mine, but that first example did spart an idea I have for a breastplate to make later.

[marcus_civis]

Hi xixax,

I'm glad you found my method useful but I should point out that part of it is based on Meats Meier's wireframe technique in this thread (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=21455&page=2&pp=15). That was a real eye-opener for me.

Cheers,
Marcus