3D application - Which one should I buy next?

[Nalrac]

Hey everybody! I'm having some serious issues here. I'm very new to this whole 3D modeling genre, so I'm not very familiar with the programs.

I need something to accompany ZBrush. My forte is photo-realism and ease-of-use. For a noob like me I'm becoming very confused with all the jabber.

I've been impressed by the renderings I have seen from C4D. I'm also familiar with the professional implications that 3DS has. Then there's Lightwave, and Wings, and on, and on, and on.

Forget about price, guys, and tell me what you think I should get.

I'M COUNTING ON YOU!! ;) PLEASE HELP.

Adam

[wchamlet]

My advice is download the demo of all of them. Choose whichever one you like the best. All of those are great software, so it's really just a personal choice.

[Frenchy Pilou]

If you forget the price, take the all :)
Pilou
ps the best price / quality seems Carrara 3 as renderer!
But try this absolute FREE prog similar 3Dmax !!! (Yes :eek: )
Anim8or.com (http://www.anim8or.com/) :cool:
It's so "big" that one floppy disk of 1.4 mega is suffisant :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Mahlikus The Black]

okay..erase that...The software to look into is all in what suits your workflow. I suggest downloading the demos and try them all out. My opinion is either Lightwave or Cinema though LW seems the better (IMO anyway). Then there is codt consideration...

[marcel]

my two cents, Nalrac: after zbrush, which is absolutely alone in his field, there is the choice between two "families" of modelling, each one having advantages... Nurbs and polygones... with the exception of the polygones of zbrush, I never learned to model in polys, and don't know how to do the simplest form in polys; for exemple, lightwave (i think) don't have nurbs tool, and most of the 3d package have very low nurbs tools; so I can suggest you try first to use in demo a poly software, and a nurbs one, and see what style is ok for you... with the coming of amapi pro that I did'nt try, actually the only "heavy" nurbs program is rhino... friendly.M. oh, and I agree with pilou: allowing to model ,one of the most powerful render engine actually is carrara 3, wich is cheap...

[MitchVFX]

Carrara is a good one--particularly when starting out. It's capable of photorealism, and some animation. The only issue using it with ZB is that Carrara doesn't support quads, only triangle, so you have to use the right export settings. I think there's a thread on here somewhere that talked about this in detail.

[marcel]

just to add that, in .obj, never had a single problem to import in carrara zmodels...

[Stonecutter]

I use LightWave, and it was like falling in love... ;)
It also works wonderfully with ZBrush, and has a fine Displacement Mapping function, that the new version of ZB will take full advantage of.
:cool:

[r tyer]

May one ask what the final(commercial)result will be?
If we are talking hobby=
If we are talking business=
"Money no object" kind of makes the situation worse instead of better.
Also, what do you see yourself doing ( if hobby) down the road.
I like the suggestion of demo's.
Even the kings at Maya have a ple you can play with.
No need to respond to anything I write here.
But as you are aware, everyone here is a little different, approaches things from a different perspective and has their own opinions on just about everything.
Which makes a question like this harder to answer.
One thing I am learning the hard way, there is no "one size fits all"
It also makes this kind of wide open forum extremely valuable.
edit: someone mentioned Carrara, they have an earlier version on sale for about 30 dollars it appears to have the basic interface of the later edition.
One more ps, Barnes and Noble have books about basically all the top of the line software packages.
Browse the aisles, thumb the books.

[Stonecutter]

Good points, Ryter... :tu:
I have a very close friend who uses Carrara, and I have been impressed with it. I like the render engine in particular, as well as the 'shader' options for material production. Also, if you decide to go to one of the 'high-end' apps later, the workflow, and a lot of the tool use is transferable to these other packages, and therefore what you learn will still be relevant... :cool:

[Nalrac]

Wow. I wasn't expecting such a great response. You guys are so awesome.

Carrara sounds cool too. I haven't even considered that. I'll check that out.

Well, to clarify a little about my usage of the sofware. I want to do it mostly as a hobby but with the possibilty of going professional later. Right now it will be mostly still images. But animation is a future venture, for sure.

For photo realism I was looking at some different renderings and was impressed by the HDRI renderings of C4D. I also saw the subsurface scattering of Lightwave and was impressed by that. I just want something that would be reasonably easy to learn and be as versatile as possible.

And ZBrush is still at the top of my list of must-have-can't-do-withouts.

Adam

[Matuka]

Houdini + Renderman is a very nice combo when price is not a consideration. Procedural modeling is very powerful.

[Stonecutter]

Hey Nalrac! :)

The learning curve is a little steep with LightWave, but it seems to be able to do everything I want, and as 'Inside LightWave' points out, you don't just ask what a tool does in LW, you try it and see if it works to do what you have in mind...
It has YET to disappoint me. ;)
On the other hand, C4D does a lot of things as well, and the learning you achieve in C4D is 'transportable' to other apps.

So, by all means, check out Carrara and C4D...Both are great packages, and they do work well with ZBrush. I have MAYA, 3D Studio, LightWave, and the learning edition of SoftImage, and they all offer different things. In the end, it will come down to what you feel comfortable with anyway, and it is the artist, NOT the tool that does the work! :cool:

[Fouad B.]

cararra is a toy.
not very stable with complexe scenery.
ok, I think all of us will try to explain that this tool is better, but in fact many things depend of you handling, sensibility etc.. then as said someone, try them all! :)

Actually my prefered tools are :

-3dsmax
-Zbrush
-Animation master
-Amapi

[Frenchy Pilou]

Hi Fouad
And me I have said if it's not a story of price "buy all" :D (see above)
You are an Amapian, I don't know that :)
Pilou
Ps What is your advice for
that ? (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=001522)

[filip]

I just received my Carrara-3 and have a few crashes, I haven't found out what I did wrong, "unknown error".
I realized that this is not the right forum to ask but there are many generous experienced user here then elsewhare.

Any idea advice?
Frenchy, does Animo8 export OBJ or dxf?

[marcel]

filip, you have a patch for 303 version on eovia site; you can go on carrara site www.carrarastudio.net (http://www.carrarastudio.net) (I think) and ask a lot of questions... and sometimes you have some erratic things with carrara, but not more than other soft... reboot, in that cases... friendly.M.

[Frenchy Pilou]

Hi Filip
You can export your 3D Objects in formats : 3ds, Obj, vtx ??, C and anim8or :)
"export" ! and not "save as"
And import : 3Ds, lwo, obj
Hope this help!
Pilou

[r tyer]

Incidentally, I noticed you did not mention having it, but if you don't, Adobe Photoshop is a must before considering anything else.
Even Zbrush agrees :their compatible exports imports etc are .psd files.
One suggestion, the new cs version is out.
Unless you have a digital camera the new features are not that much(IMHO).
But it does mean you may be able to get 7 and the books at a reduced rate.
Thought I would throw in a little plug.
Luck again

[filip]

Wow, You guys are the greatest!!!

marcel, I've the patch, did not seems to make any difference, maybe I click on things too fast. :tu: :D

Frenchy, I have downloaded Animo8 and could not export.

Sorry rtyer, are you talking to me?

I just bought Anything Grows!( hair/fur ), Actually That is the main reason I bought Carrara. it also include Amapi-5 free! could use some spline modeler too.

[Frenchy Pilou]

Hi Filip
Have you try the 4' menu ? Object : Export ? (on the up line)
(Object can change in Figure, Sequence and Scene )
But all export in 3ds or Obj!
Hope this help!
Pilou
test.zip (http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200402/user_file-1075389812dhe.zip) try with this : it's just a Plantonian Volume + a Cylinder in 3Ds format :)
Make in Anim8or
Try to reload it in any prog :)
Precision In amapi 5, nurbs are not the true nurbs but you don't see the difference if you begin in 3D modeling :)

[Reactor]

First thing's first- Photoshop is NOT a must. There are a lot of tutorials for it on the 'net, but for a beginner it's a big waste of money. Unless you're a real master 2D artist, and hand drawn texture work is what you do best, forget it. Also, avoid the idea that whatever is costly is best. That's a falsity. For example, I can match pretty much anything people do in Photoshop, with a cheap application like PhotoImpact.

The best thing I ever learned, is to learn as much as you can. Try not to get confused by all of the jabber, since all of that 'jabber' is what makes photo-realistic rendering work. Try demos, play around with free save-disabled applications (and read their manuals) and learn learn learn. *Then* make a decision about what application to go with.

I chose Truespace early on, and thankfully didn't regret it. It's a solid program in almost every department, but when I was just learning (and didn't know much) I had to battle like crazy to learn it, and what the heck was going on. I'm starting to catch on now, and I'm finding out it was a good choice for the beginner.

A few tips, and programs worth checking out-

Learn about UV mapping. Read as many tutorials as you can. A good UV mapper is Unwrap 3D. It can do almost everything, and it's really cheap. A must (www.unwrap3D.com) is a UV mapper. Put one on your shopping list- it will come in handy!

Wings 3D is a great modeler. Learn this one-- I've been around the block with modelling programs (low-poly specifically) and this one is great. Just don't expect high-poly models from it like Zbrush. None of the big programs available can match Wings for simple, fast, poly modelling. Most likely not that important for big photo-realistic scenes, but... good anyway :)

If you don't make shaders somehow (and most high-end apps have a way of doing this) you'll want to make textures. I highly reccomend Texture Maker (www.texturemaker.com) This is THE program to learn. It's easy, cheap, and works like a charm. You can make anything with it, and will save you a whole heap of heck.

Now, the above programs may be good and all, but if you don't understand the basics of modelling, texturing, shaders, UV mapping, lighting and rendering, you're not going to make anything worth your while. Again, learn everything you can- dedicate yourself to it, and before long you'll be producing some great works.

Sorry if this has been a little more info than nessesary, but... in my opinion, most people go about buying software the wrong way, and wind up with something of amazing complexity, because they liked the pictures in the website gallery, or listened to a professional guy talk about an application, and forgot those guys have been doing rendering for years. All of the programs available work differently, and are suited to different people. I'd hype up Truespace (www.caligari.com) to you, if I knew you'd like the uniqueness of it, but... that choice is up to you.

Download, learn, and have fun ;)

[marcel]

reactor, I think you're the good man for the following question: I'm interested by "box modelling" (have questioned MTB about), I own truespace 6 but never really got into it (well, I bought it to a guy there is about one month), and silo; and I had a look at wings: question is: box modelling, (by sudv.surface) is in truespace 6; is it i your opinion as efficient than wings or silo? or more?or less... thankds for advice... and I agree totally with you: the price don't mean anything :zbrush is really cheap, and unique...

[KingSalami]

Hello everyone,

Marcel:
I have found Silo to be the quickest and easiest box (poly subdivide) out there.

You can also make any kind of poly you want.

Narlac: I too, have been asking myself the same question, what program would be best to supplement ZBrush?

Price is an issue for me, and I want to be able to render, animate, and have all kinds of modeling available.

3DS Max is too expensive 3500$

I have narrowed down my choices to Lightwave and Cinema 4D.

I like C4D for the modularity of the program and you can buy more pieces as you go.

[Frenchy Pilou]

Hi Reactor
Glad to see a fan of PhotoImpact from the regreat Photostyler :)
And as I see all that Textumaker do is possible in PhotoImpact :rolleyes:

Hi Marcel
Silo is great it is just missing at this day the "snaping system" between object!
It's curious that was not planfied before :rolleyes:
They work about the subject!
Else he has a suberb design interface and cheao as you said :)
Pilou
Ps
Wing3d has no real boolean function and also not a real easy system of "snaping" but it's very pleasant to use!

[Kaz]

I think Reactor sums it up well. There are many tools out there and they all do great things. But you have to understand how to make them do great things. I think Rustboy (http://www.rustboy.com/) is a good example of this.

With that, I have a question. I once heard that Pixar hired for Toy Story with the idea that they did not want people that knew the applications. They wanted people that knew traditional animation, they could teach them how to use the tools. This makes perfect sense to me (I wonder how they hire now).

I think if you hire artists based on Application knowledge, you are limiting your yourself. Of course, you have to be productive and may not be able to afford the leaning curve...

I guess there has to be a good mixture in there somewhere...

[filip]

Hey thanks Frenchy! Strange that import/export is not in the file menu. :tu:

Reactor, you are right, I use photoshop mainly because of CMYK post processing and the ICC profile convertions. You can compose a variety of paint programs to achieve artistic results however, I'm yet to find a paint programe that do color management in CMYK, is there? Some how, I can't relate to RGB filters/curves. I guess PS-7 is where I stop.( CMYK profile have no more improvement since version 5 )

I gain so much from reading posts from this forum beside Zbrush. Truely grateful! :tu: :tu: :tu: ;)

[Frenchy Pilou]

Hi philip
I believe that now PhotoImpact XL (it's the last version of PhotoImpact has a real CMYK
Take a look at PhotoImpact (http://www.ulead.com/pi/runme.htm) :) Carreful : it's only for Pc!
and load the trial version or load on free all the manual !!!
It's a very pleasant programm!
But you have yet photoshop :D
Pilou

[Nalrac]

OK guys. This place has grown for sure. WOW!

First, thank you. Everyone has been very helpful. I got lucky however, and a friend of mine had C4D 8.1. He let me check it out and I liked it. The only problem now is that I put it on my system as a test and the radiosity and caustics can't be activated. What's wrong? Is there something I'm not setting up properly or is the advanced renderer a separate program? I'm sure that somebody on here knows.

Oh, by the way. I think Photoshop IS a must. I'm a certified Adobe Expert and CS rocks.

[r tyer]

Nalrac:
Question for you.
What do you see in CS ( beside RAW, digital cameras) that was that good.
Interesting way now of handling filterS, but in one month(Christmas Present) I haven't seen that much....

[filip]

Rtyer, good for you to have the CS version.
In my opinion, Painter-8 is getting to look like PS and PS is no where near Painter.
I guess you have to be into the business to know the real difference. I have never use many tools in PS especially functions for web publishing or image ready, history brush and histogram. Come to think of it, Adobe should have a painters' version.

Frenchy, I have tried Photoimpact and surprised to find many functions except everything I need.... :confused: :D

[Nalrac]

rtyer - CS? Lets see.

1. The new file browser is nice.
2. The compatability with Flash has been improved.
3. Nested layer sets.
4. Highlight/Shadow Adjus. (My fav)
5. Color match pallet. (Awesome)
6. A cool new logo. :)

Plus many others which I may have failed to mention.

I just like the slight improvements. But nothing drastic could ever be done to any Adobe product really. It would freak people out.

Adam

[r tyer]

CS bottom line: do you think it was worth
the price of the update?
Browser looks the same. Cropper is not.
Too early for me to tell,I have been making eyelids lately.
Just wanted a general opinion.
Thanks

[bicc39]

I would be interested also, have Adobe 7?

[Fouad B.]

the best software for painting in real time is an old application named "TV paint" now named "Mirage 1.0"

[Frenchy Pilou]

Mirage (http://www.bauhaussoftware.com/) = 2D paint prog but seems not free (thx Fouad) 895 dollars :)
Pilou

[Fouad B.]

I talk about tvpaint initialy Pilou..
and we are not in "Free bees" thread...

[Reactor]

I personally feel the best painting program is Project Dogwaffle (version 2). It's cheap, now has multiple layer support, and is about two to three times faster than Painter.

About box modelling... I wasn't that fond of Silo, mainly because TS6.6 could match it in every way. In fact, Truespace is well known for being one of the best low-poly modelers around. But, I have found that edge loops in Wings saves me a lot of time. Don't get me wrong- Silo is a good program, but I'm just not sure the $100US price tag is worth it over Wings.

Nalrac- about C4D, try the Renderosity forum, and ask there. Their forums are usually good places for people with problems.

[KingSalami]

Mirage looks awesome and at 895$ it had better be!

[r tyer]

Nalrac if you don't buy something soon this thread might not quit.
You make a decision yet?
I want to buy something and I have it already.
Luck :) :) :)

[KingSalami]

this thread is a curse, now that I've seen Mirage, I really want it!

[Nalrac]

OK People. You guys are animals on this forum. I cant leave for a minute!! :P

I figured out the problem with radiosity on C4D. It has a separate advanced render module. I tried that out, and I really like the speed of the renderer. Plus it doesn't seem to drain my system resources like I expected.

So, you guys may have guessed that....DRUM ROLL PLEASE.......

Cinema 4D 8.5 is THE WINNER.

I'm definately going to enjoy this progam. Thanks for ALL OF YOUR HELP. You were all critical in making this decision. I will keep this forum logged in my brain, however. When, I get ready to expand again I will look at what you all use. It will be help in the future for me and a lot of other people, I'm sure.

AND DON'T STOP SENDING MESSAGES.

I'd like to have record of what all of "The Masters" use. It would benefit the community ;)

Thanks for everything,

ADAM

[Frenchy Pilou]

We are waiting your next rendering of a Zbrush object with your new C4D :cool:
Pilou

[Reactor]

Now you've made us work so hard, you should bless us all with a render ;)

[Nalrac]

Well. This program really has some powerful features. This is my personal logo that I used for a subject. I did this just as a test of nurbs, HDRI, and radiosity. It has pleased me very much. Expect to see much more stuff on here rendered in C4D.

Thanks for all of your support!

Adam

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200402/user_image-1075699328tgc.jpg

[Frenchy Pilou]

Cool rendering indeed :cool:
Pilou