What is wrong with ya'll ??

[neomecha]

hi everybody @ zbrushcentral
first of all let me say that this place may be the number one adress on the entire web for zbrush resources. well but that's not all. i've viewed the content posted here, and some people think mixing colours with some brush strokes and some z-depth is ART. Hmmm let me see. There are several website with art content and philosophy about art. But were is the art in this forum. Also several posts are made with one and the same image. Sometimes i only can see a change of colour or another snake hook brush elevates out of a primitve. This should not be a froum to post all crap and minimalistic changes to an image. This place should grow with fly images and well thought about content. Not everybody can draw, including me, but i don't post me stuff knowing it's not good ! Another point i critic is, that there is no critism on worx posted at all. Is this fair to the "artist" ? Should he believe his "artworx" are dope ? Sorry, but he/she will die stupid, don't know what to make better in their next version. I know critic hurts, but it's the best way to improve skillz. Sometimes i really think "how can they say it's dope or nice" if it's only a layer with few primitives and materials ? Crazy, screwed up world some are living in.
Well at last, all i wanted to say is ->
"Be more critic and help the people by telling them what is good and what is crap"

THNX for reading
::neomecha ::

[DeeVee]

I agree that a fair comment should be made on the images posted. I do not agree that updates should not be posted. That is the only way others can follow the progress, and development of a project, and learn by seeing. Also, THIS IS A LEARNING FORUM NOT AN ART GALLERY, there are a lot of those around, for those who wish to display their creations. The best way to learn, is to present work and have others more experienced look at it and offer tips on how it can be improved, or by asking how something was done, and so learn a new technique, or a new way to use an old tool.
What is art to one person is crap to others. At least that is the way I see it. Maybe when you spend more time on this forum you will understand what I am talking about.

[Mentat7]

Hear Hear DeeVee!! I believe that this forum has evolved into a bona fide support forum. I think above all other aspects the ZBrush community uses this medium to support and encourage other ZBrushers in their endeavors. To limit the expressions in this forum only to "Dedicated and true artists" (note to self: is there such a thing as true artist?) would be a great injustice to all the fledgling ZBrushers out there like myself who would otherwise shy away from participating and otherwise providing valuable insights and support for this community. OK I will step down from my soapbox now. The point is that anyone can ask for criticism if they so desire but I think most people here are really after some positive motivation.

'nuff said

[Kathy]

I must second DeeVee's post. :tu:

My own additions go like this:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This forum has run better than my own family at times!

So whether or not people post too much or too little or "crap" or "masterpieces" is irrelevant.

If you don't like something, post.
If you do, post.
If you have an idea or improvement, post.
If you really don't like something, don't look.

But please, don't instruct me how I should use this forum. I believe this forum means something different to each and every individual.

There are plenty of stuffy, boring, "oh, I am an Artiste", sites for that type of thing.

I'm sorry you feel so negative towards others work that fits this description: "Sometimes i only can see a change of colour or another snake hook brush elevates out of a primitve. This should not be a froum to post all crap and minimalistic changes to an image."

MAYBE it's their FIRST time involved in this process? Maybe they don't know a damn thing about art itself. Maybe they are just having a BLAST messing and moving and pushing color. MAYBE their only motive is to have FUN, enjoy some Camaraderie and NOT work???

Maybe you miss the point of ZBrush Central.


"Crazy, screwed up world some are living in.
"

You judge the world by ONE forum named ZBrush Central? You need to turn off your computer and go outside. ;)

[ZBC Moderator]

Hi newmecha,
To get the feedback that you are seeking, you simply ask for ‘121 feedback’ ( One To One ).
Read about the 121 Rules in this F.A.Q. thread (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000031)
-ZuZu :)

[neomecha]

dear kathy. first of all i did not instruct anybody. Read the thread right, pleaze. second of all i do not feel negative at all. i'm a very happy and friendliy personality. it seems like there is no critizm alowed at all (as i can read in your post) almost sounds like censorship. Missing a point ? In a forum ? Sorry but i guess there is not much to miss. Read, look, post. uff "You judge the world...." uff. to judge is actually not my sphere of activity. it seems like you're really misunderstood my thread, sorry about that.

[Digits]

On judgement, I think you put everyone on the defensive with the title of your post "Whats wrong with ya'll"

I submit that there is nothing wrong with us at all. The fact that you are asking this question infers that "You" are OK and the rest of us are not? Truely I do not believe that is what you meant but please take care with them pointy words they are liable to stab the unwary.

Like Zuzu says, postfix your work with 121 and you will get the kind of input you want. As for the rest of it I hope this forum never changes it's ways and continues to be a place of learning and sharing no matter the level of skill. It is the one thing that makes this place unique.

[boozy floozie]

Dear neomecha,
The fine thing about this Forum is that embraces all levels of skill with the the ZBrush application itself and the user's inherent artistic talents outwith the software.
It also runs on the premise that if you need help you ask for it.

Artistic improvement and self awareness is one thing but judgement by users on personal subjective opinions is another.
This is not an artschool.

The forum therefore is inclusive of all skill levels.

Most of us mortals know that there is an enormous gulf between ourselves and the finest ZBrush artist's exhibited within these pages but these same artists never cease to offer help and assistance for those of us struggling with what is a tricky application to master.

There are many here that are accomplished artists within other applications and other media but may in ZBrush terms be mere begginners,myself included.

It takes a certain amount of courage to put up work youself that you know is not the greatest thing in the world.
Imagine if you uploaded your 1st experiment and all the replies that came in told you it was trash.

The forum is as much about fun and support as it is about learning.

Criticism should be mainly left to One's own self-criticism which comes through experience.

We should never feel intimadated to make mistakes or make fools of ourselves.

I love seeing everyone's work on the site it lets you know who they are and it's fun to watch people improve over time.
Myself excluded.

To see the finest work created by the ZBrush masters try following links to their personal galleries or visit the Pixologic site for further galleries and links

The Flooze

[neomecha]

as i see there is alot of confusion here.

i have never said that people shouldn't post their works neither that they should be overloaded with negative critics.

as i know from other forums about other software packages, people honestly let you know what is nice and what is not as good. and actually i miss that.

every post i have been reading was like "yes beautiful....keep on" and comments like that doesn't help anybody. they let you feel good. Let them know what is good and is more important what isn't good and why. i think this place is important for reedback and feedback isn't always positive. nobody really likes negative critics, but if your honest, it really helps yourself thinking about your works/images in another way. maybe you don't see things like others. or you have forgotten something in your image. wouldn't it be kind someone let you know ? Well I wouldn't take it personal. i would be very happy that someone helped me out with an true and honest answer of what she/he thinks about my stuff.

And yes, in this place you can really learn. i know that for shure. if you feel atacked of what other people may say, why are you posting it then ? A new thread of an image is good, cause the community grows and beginners (like me) can pull alot out of it. When my first born zbrush image is done, "yippie", i can't wait what people say about it, positive or negative.

::neomecha ::

[Ron Harris]

My father raised me like this, if you can't get along with someone stay the hell away from them and if you can't say something nice then keep your mouth shut. I heard those words my whole life...and teach the same to my family. I will now take my own advice,
Kind Regards,
Ron

[AxE]

Well, for me, I have to post my crapy work when I ask questions so they know what I'm talking about.

[kelly_b_c]

Well, I am actually a professor (not of art, but a professor none the less.) I have found that learning is greatly enhanced by positive reinforcement, than by negative punishment. Sure there are times when wrong is wrong, but in the arts, it is such a hard thing to judge. I am sure plenty of people told Picasso that people didn't really look like the way he drew them.

Basically, I see this forum as a place to look for help with a specific problem you are having in obtaining the results you want. By the way, there is plenty of criticism (when asked for) it is just done in a positive manner. Criticism does not mean you have to degrade the work.

So sit back, post your stuff, ask for the criticism you want, give critisicm when asked for, and enjoy the forum.

[filament9]

At first, upon reading through this thread, I wasn't going to bother saying anything at all. However, it's one of those things that sticks in one's mind. Given that, I still wasn't going to say anything. Then I read AxE's reply: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Well, for me, I have to post my crapy work when I ask questions so they know what I'm talking about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So, I say this: :b1: to refer to your (whoever you might be) own work as "crapy" really doesn't do much. Other then belittle your own efforts. I've done it myself, to myself. It strikes me as a personal attack committed unto oneself. I'd suggest, in the kindest way possible that any/all of us here who do this, stop.
:b2: To refer to someones elses efforts as "crap" is not a critique of their work. Wandering through other boards, dedicated to other software packages, I have had the pleasure of reading such "critiques;" tactful, informative, enlightening to the recipient I'm sure. But then, judging by the tone of recipient's response, I got the feeling they were hurt by such comments - possibly felt attacked, belittled, and hardly enlightened.
So, a suggestion, take or leave it as you will: Tactful critiques - well thought out, considered and considerate of the person to whom your/our comments are meant for.
I'm gonna shutup now ;)

[boozy floozie]

"There is nothing in a caterpillar that tells you it's going to be a butterfly."
Buckminster Fuller

"If it's painful for you to criticize your friends, you're safe in doing it.
But if you take the slightest pleasure in it, that's the time to hold your tongue."
Alice Duer Miller

[Nikko]

Boozy,
("If it's painful for you to criticize your friends, you're safe in doing it.
But if you take the slightest pleasure in it, that's the time to hold your tongue."
Alice Duer Miller)

OUTSTANDING quote. Words to live by, folks.

[Kathy]

dear neomecha,

I reread your post.

No I did not misunderstand you.

[upham]

That's a VERY good quote Boozie!!!!

"But if you take the slightest pleasure in it, that's the time to hold your tongue."

Learning is a day to day experience, which is why we are here.

(Good post Kathy!)

Upham :)

[robotalk]

I cannot HOLD my tongue any longer..You use the word critic--or critics many times in your writing --many of those times the word "Critique"--is what you need to spell..But again, this isn't an 'English' forum :D :D :D We've had this type of thread before --once when Ed the Atom --was called 'Gurgler' he posted something much like this--It would be interesting to dig out and compare...but I haven't got time to look for it--I have to get to the Dr. about this "tongue thing" :)

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1011914961ryb.gif

[AxE]

to filament9:

I personaly like my work, and feel that I am geting better as I practice more. I just said that so he could realize this form isnt just for experts and is for learning... or something like that :P

[Jake]

Hey All,

I'd like to say that when I look back on my first 3D images (4 years ago in a program called Infini-D) they are very, very poorly done. But I had a professor that encouraged me throughout the initial learning phases. I went through the "wow, look at all the things I can make chrome" and "I can make a volcano blue if I want to" phases. There's nothing wrong with that. It's very fun to do these things at first. But had my professor been condescending and full of the typical negative reinforcement that you see at most art schools, I wouldn't be where I'm at now (3D animator at the Medical College of Ohio) and would probably never had the chance to test my creative abilities in the 3D world.

Also, not everyone on this list is a professional. Some may even be kids that are just testing their creative wings. Let'em fly man. There are many ways to critique an artists' work, but unless you know what kind of person they are and what the best feedback for that person is...then staying positive and encouraging the process is the only way to go (IMO).

Neomecha, I definately understand what you're saying about letting people know what they can improve upon in their work, but some folks are more sensitive than others. Perhaps try to find a positive way to let them know what needs to be fixed...something like "I like what you've done to start with, but maybe you should try a little less specularity on the eyes..." Might keep you from getting rolecast on this list.

Cheers,
Jake

[Stonecutter]

Hey N!
I post updates all the time...For ego gratification or validation? No.

Pixolator suggested it would be useful for people as a learning experience, and I agreed. We all are learning all the time, and if I can help by posting a piece in various stages, well, I'm there!

Could you refer me to your posts? Maybe you've posted, but I don't remember anything...I'd be glad to give you a 121, if that makes you more comfortable here.
;)

[Thunderwatch]

neomecha:

It has been my (brief) experience on this forum that when I ask for hard, constructive criticism, the community here obliges. If that's what you'd like to get from this group, all you need to do is ask.

I hope to enhance my print and online portfolio with 3D creations so that I get better jobs and more money. And if I'm shooting for that kind of professionality, I have to weather heavier criticism.

I myself would welcome constructive criticism from you. Needless to say (I hope it's needless to say), *constructive* criticism would not include words like "crappy", "what's the matter with you", and "stupid", and it wouldn't condescendingly put the word artist in quotation marks.

That said, I do agree with some of what you say in your original post. I think it was your delivery that ruffled a few of my feathers. :) In any case, we're all here for different reasons, and there's no harm in tailoring feedback accordingly.

--TW

[aurick]

I personally always welcome feedback in any constructive form. But I do have to say that I once had feedback on a WIP that was so harsh that I never had the heart to put any effort into finishing it. From that point on, I've been very sensitive and tried to keep my feedback to pointing out the positives about an image.

As ZuZu said earlier on, the 121 option is always there for anyone to ask for. I've pretty much given a standing order to people that I prefer the format for anything that I post (because sometimes I forget to ask for it).

So, neomecha, considering what you've said when you do post any images I will remember to give you 121, as well.

For everyone else, I very much stand by the opinions that have been voiced that this is not an art gallery for the exclusive posting of masterpieces, but is a users support forum for the benefit of everyone at all levels of experience or expertise. I really don't think that anything is broken at all -- especially not with the number of times that I've read posts from people about how wonderfully friendly, helpful and supportive this place is. IMHO, just keep up with the way things have been and be sure to give the 121's to the people who ask for them! And, in fact, thank you for being such a great group of people to be around.

[el_pix]

another topic i didn't want to reply to at first sight, but what the heck ...

aaaw, there's sooo much been said, i dont know where to begin and will sure forget half of it, nevertheless:

about criticism, *i want some!*, that's why i post my stuff - yep, i called it *stuff* intentionally, i don't regard anything i ever did as art, artistic or whatever, well, maybe artificial, just to use the syllable somewhere - and i don't mind if there's nothing nice being said about it even. all i want is an honest opinion, i mean, an automatic pat on the back may be nice, but it doesn't tell me anything but *i looked at it and i don't care to really think about it*. if you think it's crap, call it crap, it's your opinion after all and i'll think of it whatever i see fit anyway. if you think it's amazing and downright perfect, well, i'll be pleased but will still find something i do absolutely dislike, since no one will ever be as harsh a critic to my own works, as i am myself, schizophrenically being damn proud of my ridiculous achievements and advances at the same time.
what really surprised me, is that *121* rule, did i get that right? if you want criticism, you have to actually ask for it? and if you ask for it, people will still try to say something nice, to be *allowed* to say anything negative-in-a-friendly-and-constructive-way? why?

also, it lies in the nature and concept of *criticism* and *audience*, that you don't need to prove that you're more skilled or smart than the creator of what you're perceiving, you don't have to even try, to have the right to have an opinion. heck, am i teaching the fundamentals of free speech here? being a kraut? nah, you know all that already, don't you?

well, i see the sense in being at least polite, keeping in mind whom you're criticising and showing a little respect to the mere effort. but after all, whoever visits the forum should be regarded as *audience*, and what good is an audience, that feels obliged to say something nice or to not comment at all? if you look at something that's totally wrong, senseless or badly executed, you're free to say that. no need to pretend anything. i guess we all have the brains to see the difference between disliking someones style and (of course constructively :D) criticising someones craftsmanship or technique.

actually i'm too nice a person ( :D )to really do that, i just don't like the idea of being told to behave, as if i was 5 years of age.
nevertheless i have to agree, that it *does* matter, who posted it, what the contributor wants to achieve and to distinguish between experimental doodlings and painstaking efforts with ambition and a message.
it goes without saying, that *any* professional should be able to withstand quite some amount of critique and dislike without going haywire or feeling deeply and personally hurt and insulted, i always thought this was part of the term *pro*.
clients can be cruel, stupid and lacking any taste and style at all, it's a baaaad and sinister world out there :)

aaaaaaaaaaaand: just take it all so bloody seriously, even if we're working hard to achieve whatever we're able to, if it ceases to be fun and entertaining, we'd better do something else. and i doubt that a little critique - that ownly makes you aware of the fact that you're no Dalí or Matisse - is such an awful disruption of your personal hunger for praise and harmony, well, why post at all?

i suppose all this has been said earlier, doesn't change anyones point of view anyway and wouldn't have had to type it after all, nevertheless i simply had to get rid of it.

(robo, did i spell everything correctly, using the appropriate grammar and those little hook-like thingies and the tiny dots, which you put at the end of something? i've seen *more worse* mistakes and typos done by native speakers ... not in here of course, i'm not kritiseizing :))

as stated above, i wan't critique, make me suffer.

and neomecha, whatever your first post will be, *i'll find something!*, hehe

[Ron Harris]

el pix you were on a roll....gasperdoochies...I have personally loved everyones thoughts on this, seriously....the level of intelligence has obiviously been displayed by your fluidic comments....and I was on the phone with a female friend of mine reading her all of your posts and stuff...and she finally made me stop and said, "Ron, you know you are way way too hooked on this, right?" Zbrush is my life.... :tu: :tu: :tu: :tu:

[s o u t h e r n]

Every one has their own opinions, which is only right. After years of creating Digital Art and posting the results on the web I come back to only one forum regularly. This one.

ZBCentral is (so far for me), the only place that I can show my work simply for the pleasure of showing others what I do and perhaps a small chance that I can help others create something.

Some of the images posted here are the best `piece of work` that the individual will ever do. So what. He/she had a load of fun creating it and was presumably so happy with the result that they decided to post it here.

It has already been said, if you want advice, tips, feedback, suggestions, technical improvements etc. you have simply to ask for them in the for of 1-2-1.

Some people will post a well done to every single piece of work that passes through this forum and as far as I can see that is fine too. It makes them feel good, the artist feel good and does no harm. If the artist is showing a WIP and requires critisism it is given. Don`t start demanding a forum that berates new users for posting their first attempts or we will be taking a step backwards. That one person may well be producing ground breaking images with months given the right encouragement.

The winning entry for the `Turner Prize` this year over here in the UK was `LIGHT GO OFF AND ON`. Image what we would say if that artist started posting here!!!

Night all....

Glen