View Full Version : I should know better.......
ed_the_atom
05-27-01, 06:04 AM
Okay... I'm going to get shot down here, BUT...
I know it is fun to experiment with importing various objects and things into ZBrush. However 'ready made objects' not made by the Artist in his/her work does not the artist make.
Apart from anything else ZBrush is a stand alone programme........why buy it as a plugin for other programmes? In fact ZBrush is far better than other programmes in its price range. ZBrush is a far better tool to teach a user their own abilities ,other programmes seem to be designed so that the makers produce your output. ZBrush allows you the dignity of outputting your own ability, be it raw, or refined. Zbrush gives one true satisfaction....what you create you wholly own.
I have seen potential ability ruined by things like clip art, templates etc. I have never, nor will I ever use clip art........draw your own. Why buy a programme that creates for you? Most things done for you are never quite as one had wished them to be anyway.
How does one learn all the nuances of art if one lets another do it for them......we all end up viewing an inferior product. Eventually we will all be creating the same picture. If we all do the same thing...well then nobody is thinking.
Myself I enjoy the work portrayed here, but in all honesty I dismiss the works with the obvious imports.....In fact I shudder...they insult all.
What happened to the individual?
I prefer Munch Head's work to the slickest use of ....for arguments sake...(no personal attacks intended) Poser models.....Bryce backgrounds etc.....those are false. Munch Head is true to his abilities as one can be, and accordingly his ability is improving, with ZBrush and artwork.
Hell....I threw away "Colouring In' books at four years of age........and I ain't going back.
Doesn't matter what, or how a person draws..it is that they do that makes the difference. Follow your own abilities and be proud of them........admire another's work, but never try to be them. Your uniqueness is the key to contributing to the world of Art. And, again in all honesty each person with a drawing tool is as good as everyone else...objects are all very well........but it is composition, theme etc that matter more.
It seems to me most would be digital artists follow those they deem to be the best. The real truth is each and every artist is their own 'best'. When it all comes down to it... Art is 'feeling'... nothing more, nothing less.
Like life ....be truthful to yourself......then the beauty of your own work will encompass you.
;)
Yup iddem dito ;) heheheeh :) :D
Thanks for saying that Gurgler. Let's not have another one of those philosophy of art threads from hell, but doing something yourself is more satisfying, and reveals your own style more. No offense to anyone who uses Poser.
"Eventually we will all be creating the same picture"... WOW! That one really hit home.
Excellent post, Gurgs
Stevie Render
05-27-01, 08:07 AM
Right on Gurgler ;Man
You're not going to get shot down by me :) I'm a web designer and Flash animator, and there is nothing worse than seeing work templated and used over and over again. While I understand your points, and agree with them totally, this will never change. However, you will notice that those who don't create on their own will be come bored more quickly, and move on to something else. In the 6 years that I've been doing web design, I've seen may players come and go. It's the ones that truly love to create, and take pride that they create unique pages that are still around.
'Morning Gurgler.....THANK-YOU VERY MUCH!!! :) I'm glad you came up with this post. This is exactly why I haven't been frequenting the ZBCentral forum very much lately! ( Not that anyone really cares whether I visit here or not? )
ZBrush started out to be a great self sufficient & complete, 3D or 2 1/2D Modeling & Painting software package, but lately has evolved into, JUST, another Add-On for other big name image programs. I bought ZBrush for its originality & total independence from other image programs, not to import Poser models or any other software package's models, to make my art work look better than I could do in ZBrush alone.
If users are going to import all their models created by other users in different software packages, why then should Pixolator do any more developing in the 3D or 2 1/2D modeling portion, of ZBrush. He could simply forget about the modeling portion, & just make it a 3D Paint & Rendering software package!!!
I come here to learn about ZBrush alone & improve on my knowledge of ZBrush, not to learn about the other software packages available. The main features of ZBrush are the ease & flexibility of creating models & finishing these models with its great painting capabilities! But lately it seems that the thing to do is to download or import other people's hard work, via 3D models, add some color & a couple of effects & post there images on this forum. If you have to use another program to achieve a satisfactory image, that's fine, but it doesn't teach me anything about creating in ZBrush.
ZBrush has some really great potential, but without the knowledge to grasp all that it offers, it's just becoming a "Plug-In" for other programs. If we could only get MORE documentation & tutorials for learning ZBrush, I think it would be the most important asset to mastering this program. There's so much to brush that we don't have any knowledge about, & never will without the proper documentation. I'm sure a lot of "Demo" users gave up on this program quickly, due to the "Terrible Lack" of sufficient documentation.
Well, I guess everyone has the right to post anything they want to here, but ZBCentral has really gone way off its original path since the days of the ZAcademy & not too long ago, this forum. When I visit a PhotoShop forum, everything is PhotoShop - when I visit a TrueSpace forum, everything is TrueSpace - etc., etc. & etc.
I agree that everyone is not equal in the creation of their own art, BUT, at least it's their own creation! The only time I use a model from TrueSpace is when there is no way to create it in ZBrush, & I feel that's the way it should be. I don't own Poser & I don't have any intentions of buying it, so I can cut corners in the creation of my images. There are some great artists in the world & there are some not so great, but that's life, and each person should except that.
Actually, without the practice of creating in ZBrush or any image program, your never going to get the experience needed to succeed at mastering the program your working with. I'm a strong believer that anyone can "Cut & Paste" in a graphics program, & there's nothing wrong with that, but I thought the ZBCentral was for posting ZBrush posts? Geezzz, why shouldn't we start using Poser for models - 3D Paint for painting our models - PhotoShop for image touch-up - & we could use Amorphium Pro for some more modeling - we could also use TrueSpace, Lightwave or 3D Studio for our rendering - then we wouldn't need ZBrush at all anymore!
I guess I've rambled on long enough now, I'm sorry for getting on the band wagon, but that's just how I feel. I think ZBCentral should be for posting images - information - & questions about ZBrush. If you want to promote other software packages, go to their sites to do it, & let us have our ZBrush forum please! If I've spoken out of turn or stated things that I shouldn't have, or if I've upset anyone, by posting my personal feelings then let me know & I'll dissolve my ties to this forum. I still frequent other forums that have to do with my other software, so I won't go out & hang myself or anything.
Sure hope anyone who reads this understands where I'm coming from, & doesn't get all bent out of shape over it??? :( These are just my personal feelings about ZBrush & this forum! Y'all have a good one..... :cool: Mark.
Ha ha. So the right-wing ZBrush purist party is born! :D
Chill-out guys. Its just an import button. And only a couple of people have started experimenting with it.
If you don't like it, just start posting more of your own work thats 100% ZBrush.
U. :)
Pixolator, how about a separate section of Zbrush Central for using Zbrush with other programs??? Might calm some people down!
Thanks!
Here's a thought...
WHY is there an IMPORT button if it wasn't supposed to be USED???
Purists.....sheesh.
But I will make a pledge. I will never ever again post a picture that isn't 100% ZBrush and nothing else. No problem.
I will also NOT post posts stating I have new models on my downloads page...No problem.
BUT since ZBrush doesn't allow a Jpeg export OR conversion.....EVERYONE will be using another program BEFORE they post.
IRONIC iddn' it???? ;) :D ;)
But I get your point...ZBrush Central is called that for a reason. :)
Crackle...Pzzzzzzzttt.....Grrrrg....Phzzzzt.....Cr ackle.......Attention.....There will be a meeting tonight of the ZBrush Purist Society in the Great Hall-
as the "Society" is a newly formed organization and therefore lacking the necessary funding it is requested that all members supply there own torches and ropes.
That is all. :p :rolleyes:
impending
05-27-01, 06:08 PM
At first I wasn't going to respond to this post but I thought about it and while I agree with much of what you say particularly the last two paragraphs. Other things you say or imply are so narrow minded, one person's opinion - I'll espouse another.
The basis of my argument is - What ever satisfies your creative needs, so be it. Personally, I do not like templates, clipart, readymades or Poser. But if someone assemblies these in such a way as to be unique AND they feel good about their creation, so be it. If someone does not have the hand/eye to draw a circle and instead uses Photoshop's circular marquee, so be it. How many pianists have never written a piece of music yet their enjoyment of making the keys sing someone else's song is pure bliss.
For me, the final created piece is not the reason why I created it - I did it because it feels good to create. I will use whatever I wish.
Kathy, do not make that pledge and you should make tools available to anyone who wants them. Any image where ZBrush was the critical application to bring it all together belongs here @ ZBrush Central !!!
jd
Rhom, you crack me up!! I'm over here laughing and my husband just looks and says, "you must be on ZBrushCentral...."
hahaha!
Impending, okay, I won't make that pledge, I take it back :D I probably couldn't keep myself from doing it anyway. I'm a weak anarchist, really. :cool:
I say tomaato
you say tomatoe....let's call the whole thing off....(sung in my best tony award winning voice)
Personally, I'll always use whatever app fits my needs best. End of story. Call it mixed media, call it cheap, call it cheating, call it my idea. Whateva...
BUT, this is ZBrushCentral, and due to that subject, I will continue to post my major Zcreations...and continue to add ZTLs to my downloads page for everyone (which BTW, I will be putting that silly alien head and hands up soon)
and IF anyone is interested in mutli-application thoughts etc, please feel free to email me directly. Cause I love that subject too. To be honest, I have not once created a graphic with just one application software. I've always used at least 2, 5 at my most complex.
And that's all I have to say about that...(forrest gump)
Oh wait, I still have one thing to say...
Gurgler, I still LOVE your work, and I appreciate and respect your opinion..HIGHLY.
ed_the_atom
05-27-01, 11:35 PM
Mmmmmmmmmmm....
Well I ain't no purist....
The point I was subtly trying to make seems to have been missed.
Please note....that I said it was fun importing etc.... But did say that I wouldn't do it.
My main point was centered around those people who might be put off by the 'slicker work' around here. Indeed they may be wondering why they purchased ZBrush. I note that not all people post images, and I began to wonder if they may feel their work is not up to par. Any work is up to par.
And, I maintain the better way to learn is to understand one programme completely and ones ability within it.......then look for variety. If that is being narrow-minded so be it.
However....I do like some of Kruzrs points.
On another note isn't condescension amusing?
Anyway I shall say no more. I knew at the beginning the outcome....yup I'm a fool.
impending
05-28-01, 01:57 AM
Gurgler, you're no fool & I apologize if I offended you but two things in this thread got my ire.
First, the statement that all should be insulted at images with imports - did Kathy's woman picking apples from the ground insult you, did Southern's dreadlocks man insult you? Secondly, Kathy's response - I'm sure Kathy needs no defender but this smelled of suppression.
Funny thing is, I agree with 98% of what you wrote. Take your last two paragraphs and imagine them pasted into my response and you'll see they support my position and contradict much of what you wrote, "objects are all very well........but it is composition, theme etc that matter more."
Again, I mean you no ill will - If you're offended I apologize.
And yes, Kruzr is da man!
jd
ed_the_atom
05-28-01, 05:02 AM
thanks Impending....
But no nothing in the posts offend me....sticks and stones etc. I just couldn't resist a 'raspberry'. It does appear I did contradict myself.... That I put down to a 1.30 am fatique, and a rushed post. More was lost than gained.
And, I'm sorry, but I cannot abide poser figures.....however that is my problem. I have to agree with you......there does appear to be a smell of suppression, I did feel it creep in, and it has lingered. Much to my chagrin.
I can be a loose unit at times.......so please bear with me... :)
Plus I would not be offended if this whole thread was collapsed.
:)
Actually I don't think suppression made it to the table.
As a female, I was practicing the fine art of "pouting". It's harder in print, but it can be done. Gosh, Gurgler, I wasn't going to stop my progress cause you don't like Poser!! ;) ;)
But I did throw out the suppression statement to see what your reaction would be, I wanted to know if your convictions followed your words.... :D
Yeah, I'm a chic. Cold, calculating.... :D :D
And although I don't necessarily need a defender, it sure was nice to have impending step up on my behalf... ;)
Gurgler, I really do get your point. And I can understand your concern for the "slick" work that may cause others not to post their work. I really do.
:tu:
And so, let us pray to the BBS gods, that they strike this thread down for the betterment of man..
;)
I must admit one point, conversations on this board can be VERY challenging. I like that. alot.
:) 'Morning all.....One final post on this subject. My post wasn't to insult or degrade anybody on this forum for using "ready made" objects or "premade images", in ZBrush. I tried to make my point, ( which is, this is a ZBrush forum, & there are so many people here trying to learn how to use & create in ZBrush, including myself. Nobody can learn anything about modeling an object in ZBrush, or even using the main functions of ZBrush, if there reading posts or viewing images that have nothing to do with the building of an object from within ZBrush.
I have nothing wrong with using what ever combination of graphics programs available to the user, for many of my jobs I use several different programs. And I Am Not A Purist, thank-you very much!
All I was trying to get at was, people on this forum as a whole come here to learn about ZBrush & post their images after they learn. It's difficult enough to try to learn ZBrush due to the present documentation, so to have a person come here looking for help on modeling an object & instead finding information on importing objects from Poser, instead of modeling an object within ZBrush, isn't helpful at all.
The same goes for some people who are trying to create a decent image to post, & then they see this superb image that was created using an object imported from Poser, & it takes all there incentive away because they can't even come close to what there looking at here.
I received an e-mail from a member of this forum that I had talked to before, in it he stated that he was giving up on ZBrush, due to the fact that he could never come close to some of the images being posted on this forum, & also due to the fact that there didn't seem to be very many posts with information of learning how to build or create in ZBrush. He also stated that so many positive comments were made about the images made with poser imports, & very few in comparison to images made completely in ZBrush, so why try so hard to learn the program.
Anyway, I hopes this clears my post up some what??? If it doesn't, WHATEVER! :rolleyes: See'ya later..... :cool: Mark.
All great points, especially the one about seeing a poser image and thinking, "Damn, I could never do that." Look what Southern does with the poser images though! I mean, that's some fantastic work. When he's done it looks nothing like a poser image, and I see nothing wrong with that at all. What I dislike is the practice of using other's templated work, changing a few colors and calling it your own, like I see so much in web design.
I realize that I am a newcomer here, still unknown to most of you. Small wonder, since I am only a month old in terms of my life as an artist -- before then, I didn't even know what ZBrush was and only thought of CGI as something really cool that I saw on the movie screen. I admired it, but never in a million years would have expected to be able to be turning out some impressive works, myself.
That is the power of ZBrush. It is also why I am immensely grateful to have access to a forum such as this, along with all its wonderful tutorials.
The fact that I AM still a newbie and a relative outsider (my posted works on here so far have garnered a whopping two remarks) made me think twice before jumping into the lion's den and putting my own two cents into this thread. Yet it has also occurred to me that such a perspective could be useful.
Let me first say that I am awed and astonished by the works of Southern. They are inspiring to me as an artist. In fact, since art at its best serves to be provocative and inspiring, it could certainly be said that work such as Glen's self portrait is the very essence of art.
But I believe that there is also a distinction that should be made. While the self portrait is a remarkable work of art, is it a great example of ZBrush art? I'm inclined to say no. The various media involved have been so seamlessly blended that it is no longer possible to look at any part of it and say with certainty, "That is ZBrush!"
I'm not a purist. I have no shame importing an OBJ from Poser or another source if it is the best way to achieve the result that I am seeking. Or with exporting a texture for work in another program before importing it back to be re-wrapped onto a tool. These abilities were put into ZBrush to be used, and they are extremely effective. I believe that whatever tools are needed to produce the artist's vision are to be embraced rather than reviled. (Well, within moral limits, of course. :eek: )
The inherent cause for conflict here is not that the self portrait was created and posted. It's not that the result is so damned good that it's almost sickening. The problem is that ZBrush Central may not be the best place to post work that, while it made effective use of ZBrush, also made use of so many other programs that it is no longer possible to tell what was actually ZBrush at all.
Only the Mighty Pixolator can say for certain, but I believe that this forum is at its most powerful as a venue in which ZBRush artists can share their techniques and insights to make themselves better ZBrushers. Not better Poser artists. Not better Photoshop artists. ZBrush. And as such, it may be best to only post work here that clearly illustrates the capabilities of ZBrush. The Renderosity "Mixed Media Gallery" would be an excellent venue for work such as Southern's self portrait -- work that is so powerful that it demands to be shown, yet cannot be said to be mostly or distinctly ZBrush in its derivation.
Notice that I'm not picking on Glen's experiment with importing a poser figure -- "snake hair," or however he was affectionately referred to. The majority of that scene was clearly accomplished with ZBrush, and as such it was extremely educational and appropriate for this forum. However by the same token, I learned much more about ZBrush from Shinzaho's anime type head and the follow up comments than I ever will from Southern's head.
Glen, you've written some excellent tutorials, and I refer to them constantly. As I said before, I am a great admirer of your work. Yet I also have to side with Gurgler, Rhom, Kruzr and the others. In this new artist's humble opinion, ZBrush Central should showcase ZBRush and mostly ZBrush rather than massively mixed media.
I hope that I haven't offended anyone here. Such is not my intent at all. I haven't come to these conclusions lightly, and have thought long and hard before getting onto my soap box. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing more excellent ZBrush work here to learn from and hopefully contribute some of my own.
Speaking of which, I've spent way too long typing this thing. Time to get back to creating! :)
This thread has had me on the boil for a couple of days now. I cant get over the pompous attitute some people have that ZBrush should only be for one purpose alone and should not be allowed to expand and be incorporated with other programs. I'm sure this has insulted people and I am definatly one of them!
I'm a professional television graphic designer/writer/tutor I enjoy using and experimenting with ZBrush. I can also see other uses for its applications such as game-modeling, book illustration, web design, garden-sculpture design, corporate logos, technical illustration, TV graphics, animation ...and the list goes on! Why the heck does it have to be narrowed done as just an art application? If anyone told me that Photoshop should only be used with the the tools built into it, I would tell them to go jump in a lake! I'm sure Pixologic would not like to hear that the market should be limited to stop a few users "shuddering" in disgust that their hard-worked-on software is not being mesured up to the great blow-hard term "ART".
I took ZBrush to a Art & Design school lately, and they sadly didn't want to know about it, as it was not a widely used program in the market place. If they knew how widely it could be applied to every different area of design and art, I'm sure they would take it on. So its up to the experimenters and developers out there to apply what they can with this software (ensuring the growth of Pixologic), with-out being crucified in the process.
Just because Southern (and myself) have imported a model into ZBrush and painted it up and posted our results DOESN'T make it "art". Its just a damn image. It was just a case of saying - "Hey look what ZBrush can do with external models". Its not a case of "is-not-an-artist-make", as I'm sure an art-piece is not the intenstion. I feel very sorry for those who have been sneered-at because they have experimented and broadened the horizons of ZBrush's capibilities (and it's market).
Try posting your own ZBrush images and experiments, and not so much hot-air.
Upham. :mad:
Pixolator
05-29-01, 05:31 AM
Hi Gurgler and all :)
Gurgler has a way of translating ideas to paper that is always thought provoking and the subject of this thread is no different.
In my opinion, this thread is of a more philosophical nature in which there is no absolute “right” or “wrong” but rather, it is your personal preferences, goals and needs which make one “right” and the other “wrong”. Even tough a clear winner can’t be chosen, the process of exchanging ideas enlightens us all and I do welcome these exchange of ideas (as long as they are done in a polite and respectful manner to all members!)
I am reminded of something that I have seen recently (but unfortunately I don’t remember the exact words nor do I remember the name of the author) …
“Judge a person only after you have walked a mile in his shoes, in which time you’ll be a mile away and you’ll at least have his shoes.” :)
There are many tools out there for creating digital art (thankfully), and each one has its own specific purposes. To create artwork that truly "stands out" requires a certain degree of talent, dedication and experience in one's chosen tool(s).
ZBrush was created to provide the creative mind with powerful tools to create beautiful and effective artwork. It is your talent and skills and efforts that are the main ingredients, and ZBrush is intended to be a tool that allows you to better explore your capabilities and create images that will – simply put – make you proud. You decide whether you want to concentrate on specific parts of the process, or whether you want to do the entire thing from scratch. Enjoy the process and do whichever makes you happy (within acceptable ethical and legal boundaries). ZBrush will continue to evolve with each release, new functions will be added, existing functions will be enhanced and new ways to express yourself will be made available. The commercial version of ZBrush, version 1.0, was released only 9 months ago; we have yet to fully realize the potential of the ZBrush concept. There is a vast variety of ways artists have already used ZBrush, and there is still a vast variety to be explored.
ZBrushCentral is a ZBrush forum, intended to increase users’ knowledge of the inner workings of ZBrush, and to enable ZBrush users to get better at using the software. This was the primary goal originally, and it continues to be the primary goal. ZBrushCentral began only 5 weeks ago, and it is still very young. As the forum grows, we will add more sub-forum categories to accommodate users with different needs, skills and points of view. In this formative stage I'd very much like to see this forum develop as a ZBrush community that is exploring all of ZBrush’s features, including the export/import features as they relate to ZBrush in conjunction with other art tools.
The more we explore, the more we can learn and improve our own individual skills. Use your existing talent and dedication to attain a greater level of mastery, then push to attain the next, and so on.
I urge you to continue and share your images and experiences with other members. Don't feel intimidated by other artists' expertise, rather use it to your advantage, be inspired and "pick their brains": ask them to share their techniques with you.
Learn, explore, evolve, and be happy with your progress! :)
- Pixolator
Upham, I feel your pain.
I am a contract graphic artist. Branding, web, print etc.
People roll their eyes when I say I don't use Mac. People roll their eyes when I say I rarely use Illustrator (I think Flash is better as a drawing program) I still haven't bought or used Photoshop...
There's ALWAYS more than one way to skin a cat. Unless marketing has told the skinners that the cat can only be skinned a certain way....ie, Adobe, Macintosh, Quarkstuff..etc etc etc.
I appreciate EVERYONE'S work no matter how much Z is in it.
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