Does this export to 3DS MAX - ...... why NOT?

[cindy]

A game review site - rates this very high
which brought me here -

then I see this doesnt export cleanly to
a file 3d max can read with textures.

Duh... how can it be any good for games then?

what gives here?

Cindy

[Houdini]

Hi Cindy
I asked Pixologic something like that some days ago. You can see it in here: http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000009&p=6
Bonne chance... :)

[Houdini]

And ZBrush can be very powerful for games...
ZBrush has a magnificent modelling sistem, easy but powerful.(You can learn how to model a realistic human head in 15minutes in Z...really!)and you still can export the models to 3DSMax, Lightwave or other 3D package because in ZBrush you can export to .dxf(almost every packages accept this file type)or to .obj...so you can export the ZBrush models to Max and do great games but I agree with you...WE WANT TO EXPORT TO .MAX!!!!! :D :D :D

[cindy]

thanks for reply.

But I came here to TEXTURE Models mainly.

Im also looking at deep paint and maxon
paint.

Why should I bother with this zbrush then?


( Oh - the review raised red flags too.
It raved about games - but then I saw they
tested the work in cinema 4d. Now that may be
a good app - but* no one * owns it - or uses
it for real games.

Games = MAX. simple. )

thanks

Cindy

[aurick]

3D Max is capable of exporting and importing DXF files, am I right? So does ZBrush. Which means that you can model and UV map your object in 3D Max, export it to ZBrush, texture it using TextureMaster, and then wrap the texture onto your object again in Max.

If you are having specific problems with the process, please give us more information so that we can help you out. I don't have Max, myself, but I know that there are other people in here who do, and I think you'll find us to be a very friendly and helpful group of people if you give us a chance.

[cindy]

thanks for your generous reply .

I am no expert myself, but I believe dxf
does not retain any textures with it. so
no go in that format, I'm afraid. ( anybody
know for sure? )

I will try the OBJ converter mentioned
above and hope for the best.

Does anyone know if Z rotoscopes?

( Ie: you can import a photo to use to
"pose" for a new model" That;s a really
important feature to me.

( also being able to texture with real
photos is a HUGE plus. )

thanks so much

Love,

Cindy

[WingedOne]

See my reply to your other post about rotoscoping.

[drawingtroll]

beguining to say, there are REALLY few softwares which support directly Max format. I think mainly those everything to everything espensive convertors like PolyTrans or 3d Exploration (cheaper if I am not wrong)

read all these is you're really in game-creation-problems. All this is discovered by me through pain and tears, nobody told me a clue in its day.

dxf has no support for textures.There's habware and other good plugginsfor obj import/export intoto/ outside max.They're free. 3d exploration supports obj, x, cob, every format, plus MAX native format, with some issues in this last one. Cheap for a game company, expensive for an individual.

dfx dont, but Obj does. It supports UV mapping, smoothing normals, no practical vertex count limit, etc.


Zbrush supports textures and uvmapping. It supports importing mapping data in objs as well as exporting it in the obj. It only flips the uvs I think but you can fix it flipping uvs again outside, or flipping the texture.

You can vertex paint an object or use texture master and paint a texture over your object. Producing the result of Deep Paint 3d. Well, there is a small issue to tell you all, the smoothing normals view is not yet but i think will be for 1.5 version, wich is available free for all the people who buy this 1.23b version. Also render is going to improve although already is much better than deep paint, in my opinion (as all said here by me ;D)


Deep Paint 3d can't model. Can't make morphing targets. I have worked for comercial videogames (well, just one) and this morphing targets are cool for any intro avi, as you usually need a zoom shot with human face expressions. These morphed heads go to Max to produce an expression anim.

Besides, you have the abbility of making interface 3d-like elements (menu bars, icons, etc) whith just intuitive painting. I know what I talk about if I tell you how much would you spend in a an adobe like software to make those 3d like UI elements (is always that way in games, u know) and how quick are done with this.


Its pulling tool is much like a magnet or Max soft selecetions, but more intuitive. You add bumps easily, no matter if you want them real 3d bumps or a bump TGA added to render those bumps. (dx engines are beguining support it if I'm not wrong)

In my opinion like it is now is a tool useful for low poligon stuff for ingamem low pol characters, but not as useful as Deep Paint 3d, for me that is also a great tool. For high polygon count texturing...I think at the end...depending on your gearing you may prefer Deep or Zbrush.

I have deeply studied pdf Deep Paint 3d manuals from its site, as played a lot with a demo they use to have for download. Don't if they improved it, however, and you cannot test you own models with that demo, however.

For low pol, maybe you would prefer Deep3d, but it has its issues, if what some people at forums tell is true. But...with good uv mapping knowledge, that is managing uv mapping thing in Lith Unwrapper or Max uv window, you don't really need texture weapons (uv addon to Deep) , and once again, you perhaps could do almost teh same with Painter 3d, which I don't know if still sold alone, or only bundled with Poser 4. If so, you'll have it plus Poser.

But if you , like me are interested in more than having premade models, and wish to create your own, unique game characters, you may prefer to model them in Max in your company, then export the obj (there's a free pluggin which works cool) and paint, scrathc, remodel, and whatever , in Zbrush. Zbrush cost you even less than the Poser 4+ Painter 3d option. In my opinion gives much creative freedom.

But take care non of these solutions is magic; you'll end up to often painting your game texture over a 2d template, and updating in a 3d package or if you're lucky to be in a company clever enough to buy 3d Exploration viewer, you'll have a vertical mosaic in your win desktop, one side adobe 2d texture, painting over it, the other side with the resized window of 3d Exploration refreshing changes just hitting ctrl+save in adobe.

In my opinion, Deep Paint 3d is a great solution, very powerful. Very expensive too, don't forget it. I hope they lower the price, I like to have several tools for each tasks, as games is a hard thing to create.
But is not magic.

Zbrush is -in my humble opinion, Iknow some one is going to kill me, sorry, I need to be sincere with some one who may find the sam eprobs I was I year ago- not as good as deep paint 3d for low polygon modelling, till some imporvements are pending to come in 1.5 version, if I am not wrong. How ever, it allow you to paint game models, which is a lot. Some retouch will be needed, but as always, now 3d painter let the model perfect. Zbrush is absolutely great for game interfaces, which is a big percentage of game stuff.Hope you know it. You make those things in a fraction of the time needed in adobe+whatever the 3d package. In that I see no competition. As a modeller, it does not suit me at all for beguining a character from scratch, but for modifying characters, which almost which you'll make all the time (I have see ppl making a woman from a rude man model ;D) is good, more quick in organic shapes modifying than max.

If you came looking for a make it all kit for videogames here, that is not Zbrush. There's not such a tool, however, for games. I used regularly a dozen of freeware tools plus some bought ones in our game production. Max is near that all in one combo, but no 3d painting, for example.

INMHO, Zbrush is a cool tool to have, an invaluable weapon. Not the main one, but good for many game specific tasks.

I even think for hi polygon stuff, press renders, morphs and creatures creation for game intros, is a think that really worth its low price.


I know every body in this forum think ZB is the greatest tool ever, but I have used lots of applications during years, and under a lot of pressure, I don't really thing there's anyone magic. There are useful ones for specific tasks, others which aren't at all. This is useful, and how, for a good number of game art creation, but not for all as I don't believe in magic or miracles. ;)

Have a look at the 2d-3d art from Southern, Pixolator, and many others. It's power in illustration is very high, though the problem is that in games that's only for press renders, and perhaps the package illustration, or the loading and splash screens typical in games.

In one of these days games, you'll need to make models in Max with 1500 polys or so, and work a lot at vertex level with lots of precission, more than anything. Still, ZB+ a script added called Testure Master, can help you making a basic 3d painting of that low polygon model, and I tell you: you will need too retouch it a lot in adobe later on, but then you will know where details are laying down, not blindly paint over an unwrapped wireframe bmp mesh.Also will need a lot of checking with a 3d package or viewer whic support smoothing normals, as it is the key of good visualizing of so low pol stuff.

For that low price that is a lot. Deep 3d will produce easily a work with less retouch needed in 2d, but I think it does not let you paint with a lower than 2 pixels wide brush over your model. That's bad. Games use 512 pixels or 256 pixels wide textures. You'll need to paint at vertex level.

That all is for Pc Games like RTCW. For console (xbox, game cube,ps2 etc) that's talking about 4.000 , 5000 , even 8000 polys models, depending on the game and on the console, scenaries, etc.
So for those games, being Zbrush a high end geared product, is more sensible then the buying of Zbrush than lower end game market.

Hey, if you asked me (no one ask me as their in danger of reciev these short responses) I would say to the Boss: "Hey, man, go buy : Zbrush, Deep Paint 3d, Max 4+character Studio, Photoshop, 3d Exploration viewer-convertor download free Lith Unwrap for mapping and some other free for organic modelling, and we're all done. Then give me a few years to learn tha all. ;DDD"


Hey, sorry, I like to play jokes, I'm a bit crazy. But that's a really serious combo for game production...

Some of the freebies I think if u're a lot of patient can even be more powerful fo rsome tasks... :

Npherno mapper, Lith Unwrap, Metasequoia (once it come possible to buy outside Japan) , Pixia (3d painter best wacom stroke response ) , Wings 3d for model construction, etc.

[aurick]

Hi Cindy. I've just worked up a tutorial to show how to texture using Photographs. You can find it by clicking this link (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003997).

Although you can't try the exact method out with the demo, it does show what you're looking for in action.

[cindy]

Wow - drawingtroll, what a great and comprehensive post. Thanks a lot!
I will try and absorb all your excellent
observations and experience.

Cindy

[cindy]

Hey aurick - that's fantastic!
thanks a bunch.

Cindy.

[drjjwow]

cindy its good that you wonder and its good to ask questions to see if your money is worth spending..you couldnt find a single person in this forum that would tell you that it wasnt worth the money...zbrush has alot of new features unknown to gaming artists and professionals.. it the opinion of myself and others that this is the best program for texturing and modeling on the market today.. not just at this forum but around the world..so dont worry about the money just come aboard and well help you achieve whatever you want..good luck..

[upham]

Hi Cindy.
I use Max and ZBrush. Although I can't remember the last time I used Max, and now I'm too lazy to pull the computer out and screw in the dongle, so I'll let it gather dust till I'm ready. I'm planning on making a ZBrush to Max tutorial, but I'm kinda busy doing other ZBrush stuff at the mo.

Check out these excellent links in the forum mainly by dOb, who unfortunatly has run off with some young hottie and has never been seen again!

Exporting Mapping Coordinates (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003419)
More Exporting and Mapping questions! (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003429)
Exporting to MAX etc (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002943)
Object export (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000715)

I've got to point out that you'll be out of luck when it comes to exporting models with the ZBrush demo!

Upham :)
PS. What's wrong with this forum? What do you think needs improving, and can you give an example of a better forum?

[Stonecutter]

Cindy I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but here's some photo Matte work from an image I'm working on...
http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1014325484jnf.jpg
This is a photo, inserted, shading ehanced, and painted around in ZBrush... ;)

[Kathy]

Cindy I have some thoughts also, but not the time to post extensive here. If you'd like one more opinion, feel free to contact me directly.

:D

[drawingtroll]

a pleasure to help. You will recieve lots of good advices in this forum ...actually is the most friendly I ever met. Add that to Zbrush features...And this is also unexpensive ;)

[drawingtroll]

ooops...didn't check what I wrote, you'll find some mistakes like :

"as deep paint 3d for low polygon modelling"

I meant low poligon models texturing-3d painting. As you cannot model any way with Deep, I was thinking in texturing.

and "no 3d painter leaves model perfect" ..instead of "now" . I meant at least for games there's needed 2d retouch whatever the 3d painter used.


argh..also said "You'll need to paint at vertex level." i meant pixel level.

well, some were making the opposite sense of what I had in mind. I write too quickly. There must be more mistakes, but sure you catch the idea. You're gonna collect more info. SOme people will say opposite of what I say or modified visions of it. And that is great. As you'll perform a complete and balanced vision of the available software you have for gaming and how Zbrush can help there.

I wont write anymore, I promise. ;)

[cindy]

Yes, it certainly is a friendly place. Thanks all.
But I'm wondering how hard this Z brush is
too learn!?
I've looked at a couple of the script
tutorials that come with the demo -
and I'm still waaaaaaaaayyyyy confused
about using Z brush.

Love,

Cindy

also - most of them are just kind of doing
the same type of head over and over -
are there other script tutorials anyone
would recommend - to get a good overview?

thanks so much!

[cindy]

Couple of assorted questions please?

1. Is Z brush best for making heads only?.
( I note a couple posts are using poser
bodies )

2. Has anybody done THEIR OWN head with
z brush? ( using photos ) or a similar
project.

thanks so much

L,

Cindy

[WingedOne]

My Space Pirates image http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003199 and my Spell image http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002172 were done using full bodies and I didn't use poser. (I can't afford it right now). Everything was done within ZBrush.

Go to the quicklinks section and you'll be able to find tutorials and scripts on all sorts of different types of modelling techniques which don't involve heads.

I'd also recommend going through the "picnic" tutorial that comes with ZBrush.

[aurick]

I'm with Winged One. Definitely run the ZBrush_Picnic script, which is in your ZScripts folder. The file that you will want to start with is the one called index -- it opens all the others for you. This script shows ZBrush being used to make a complete scene, and teaches you what's being done as you go.

Some of us use Poser imports because we're awful at modeling human bodies. Each person here has a particular set of experiences and skills, just like any other artistic medium. On the other hand, there are some phenomenal body modelers. The bottom line is that ZBrush can create practically anything that you can imagine. To really see the power of the program, I recommend going to Pixologic's Website (http://www.pixologic.com) and visiting the new ZBrush at Work and Feature Tour sections. The first one is particularly applicable to your question about what the program will do. All of the artwork shown there has been posted here, and most of it is by users with no affiliation at all with Pixologic other than to grant the use of their images.

I dare say that you will find yourself hard put to find a program that is more diverse in its functionality than ZBrush. It is NOT a 3D animation package. There are plenty of those. Instead, it's a painting/modeling/texturing/rendering program that mixes both 2D and 3D elements together depending on your needs. Of course, this also means that it won't behave the same way that a 3D animation package will -- so don't try to force it to. Just give yourself some time and have fun learning it. I think you'll be surprised!

[drawingtroll]

I was going to post a much longer thing. But reading Aurick post, now I don't hit the button and post a 1/100 th of it. As those few lines from Aurick are much cleverer. :)

Intead of doing that I am going just to add some details:

-Even if at the end, you prefer a more geared to low polygon solution, you still will have:

1) Possibly the greatest 2d/3d all in one Game Interface creation. Have a look at games like age of empires, or whatever game menu, icons, bars, borders. For that , Zbrush is really useful. And quick.

2) A good renderer, with control over shadwos, several lights, antialiasing, enourmouse sizes in pixels renders, fog, etc.

3) Combined with its detailing-illustration abbility it can make those splash-intro screens for saved-game loading.

4) The cheapest solution for 3d painting over models. I have noticed better results in high polygon models, but it could be just me. It works also for the others, but as always in 3d painters, 2d retouch needed over the texture.

5) a 2d painting software with a good wacom stroke response..even in my celeron...It has tools like saturation brushes, smear, light/dark brushes, infinite material capabilities...

6) Some day you art director using Max will ask you for making morph targets. Perhaps the game intro needs it for a first plane cut, were face expressions are involved.
Well, I think in some post there's even a tut for making those morph targets (several objs in the different moment of a expression. Later on, in a very similar way, Poser or max, calculate inbetweening frames.)

...pant...and a lot more. Stop here. I will bore the whole comunity. ;)

So , those to say the first I can think of in the jungle of needs you'll have for games.

And in case you don't really like it for modelling, you will have all those 6 things for a small price.

Is an extra tool. Your base tool will be Max or Light Wave (depending on your company's tastes) or even Milkshape ( 20 dollars, and really good for low polygon stuff ) if your company is starving ;) or you are just a hobbyst. If is this last situation, think of:

-Lithunwrap, Anim8or, Wings3d, Milkshape, Pixia, and some others.

Well..this time I hope I make it really clear...always my fingers do the same to me. ;)


However, it is not that Zbrush CAN'T make low polygon models. I think is not geared to that, so use every tool for its best using.
Here's an example that it can, but at the end, some features are neded for this so specific stuff...
http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003109 http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000060

If you are making an isometric view with rol, or strategy (aoe, starcraft, diablo, etc) prerendered game(that is mid polygon count, as sprites are small, no need for extra high polygon count, but yes more than low.All is prerendered to BMPs), then it can help a lot in modifying the models you export from Max. You'll reimport after the models modification (for example, adding tentacles, horns, making some magnet deformation, or characterizing someway) the obj with created texture also, again in Max. You will set up the bones (as you would in LW, Milk, or whatever) make the render in the 8 directions and that's all.

My last advice test all the tools you can your own, be quick, have your mind really awaken, but be patient. You'll find the one suits you for each tasks...You'll end managing a LOT of them...At the end, you will be able to use them all, each time will cost less effort to learn.

Good luck.

[cindy]

Thank you thank you for all the wonderful help .

BUT BUT........ I think my main reservation
is:

Games today - are photo realistic!

I have seen some wonderful character work
with Zbrush - but no photorealistic
characters ( yet ), at least leading men
or ladies.

Personally, I am interested in game and movie modeling. ( not toons )

" Eye there's the rub, matey" !

Can Z brush do this?

( Even some of the poser models at renderosity now are getting photorealistic"

WHAT SOFTWARE / TEXTURING are they using?

thanks so much!

Cindy

[aurick]

Cindy, I'm sure you know that the quality of any character is about 30% geometry and 70% texture.

In the case of the best quality Poser textures, you're normally looking at two texture maps of 4000x40000 in size, composited from about 60 photographs for the head texture and 80 for the body texture. Final Fantasy the movie, on the other hand, used skin textures that were created entirely in Photoshop with no photographic input.

ZBrush is also capable of turning out excellent work. Here is one, that combines Poser and ZBrush both: Queen of the Flowers (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003688).

Now, in terms of high quality graphics within a game, let's take a look at what's actually happening. Final Fantasy X is an excellent example, since it has just recently been released and is also acclaimed as the most graphically impressive game put out yet on the PS2. If you actually examine the game, FFX has three levels of graphics quality. The highest level is completely pre-rendered full motion video scenes. These are on a par with what you see in movies, as opposed to being a computer game. Below that are two different levels of quality in animation that is rendered "on the fly". Some of it looks pretty darned good. But the lowest level of quality is scarcely more than a face painted onto a flat VERY low poly shape. The lips don't even move, and in some cases the eyes are only painted on as opposed to having any geometry at all beneath them. Yet around 95% of the game is composed of these two lower quality levels.

Another good example is Baldur's Gate II. Everything that you see in the game environments was pre-rendered using several machines working in tandem over the course of about 12-18 hours per render. The game models, on the other hand, are rendered on the fly and when you actually look closely they are nowhere near photorealistic. Yet BGII is hailed as one of the most impressive PC games ever.

Can ZBrush do that super high quality texturing that you see in the fmv's? Probably. Can it do the medium and low quality levels? Most definitely! Same for any of the texturing in BGII. Which level of quality are you the most likely to be working on, at least in the near future? Probably not that super high stuff! Most game design companies don't even do those movies in house -- they contract out for it and instead do the work that they specialize in: non-photorealistic graphics for the regular game play.

Let's face it: games fall into a few categories. Console games are designed for a specific system and make the best possible use of that system. PC games, on the other hand, must play to the lowest common denominator because the designers don't know how good the gamer's system is going to be. In fact, most games have pretty low minimum system requirements. It simply isn't practical for a PC or a console to be expected to render animation with two 4000x4000 texture maps on the fly for a single character, much less the 10, 20 or more characters that can be on the screen at any given time. Maybe 5 years from now that will be different, but it's certainly not the case today.

Don't confuse in-game movies that are pre-rendered by a house that specializes in the work with standard game play animation and texturing. It's arguable that ZBrush could do either kind of work. It's a definite that the program can be invaluable for regular game play. You may eventually grow in your level of skill and experience to where you will be sought after by the movie-type companies. Until then, though, ZBrush can certainly do the kind of work that you can reasonably expect to be doing. And by the time you ARE sought after by the pre-rendered movie companies, ZBrush will undoubtedly have grown right along with you to be capably of assisting in that kind of work with ease.

For that matter, our own KenB has effectively shown that ZBrush is useful in the motion picture industry. So if ZBrush's work can look good on a huge screen, there is absolutely no reason that it can't be stunning on a monitor. Like anything else, it just takes practice.

[juandel]

in fact i lost track of this thread and dont understand all of it, but i thought i’d place this link to Levius’s Phototexturing tutorial (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003204&p=) in here anyway :)

- juandel

[cindy]

Great post aurick - thanks!

You seem to know a lot more about it than
me. And youve convinced me Zbrush is up to
the task.

Most the games I have been checking out have been at public arcades. Of course you get all levels of rendering. ( I'm not sure of the technical levels like you )

But I notice most of the new arcade games
are getting very photorealistic.
( of course, you can see some low polygon
errors at times - and other less than perfect
aspects)
I want to be able to do that level work
at a minimum.


Thanks juandel for the link!

that is a very good tutorial of what I seek. Of course you need photoshop as well. I dont use photoshop - I use Ulead photoimpact. Could probably
do the same I guess ( anybody know? )
But I've never done "layers " in photoimpact

thanks so much all

L,

Cindy

[cindy]

" FFX has three levels of graphics quality. The highest level is completely pre-rendered full motion video scenes "

Oh aurick, as you might gather, I'm just
watching the game "intros" at the arcades -
not actually playing them. So am I seeing
this pre rendered level only?

Also, films are not far off for me. I
have had several requests for help from
Indie filmakers. They don't pay much if anything, but I think they will be good
experience for me.

Love,

Cindy

[drawingtroll]

Nope, Photoimpact can't compare with adobe PS. A standard in games production is Max+ adobe Photoshop. (+ what I call, extra tools, between them, Zbrush.)

Even though,don't take it wrong, PhotoImpact is cheap and cappable of a few nice things.

you have layers in Zbrush ;)

I do like prerendered games much more than low poligon count ones. But that is coming to an end, sadly. Or that seems to me looking every title released now. Even strategy. However, if is the indy world, you can do what you like, you arent forced to anything.

If you asked me, I would have preferred a lot to have worked for those games like Graphic Adventures (Monkey, etc) from the 80's, early 90's. All hand drawn. ;)

However, a game in a PS2, Gamecube or Xbox, is another world. They're aproaching to that point I would like to see.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...I'm just
watching the game "intros" at the arcades..not actually playing them. So am I seeing this pre rendered level only? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps.Aliens Vs PredatorII they told me uses engine for game intro (low polys calculated at real time like in game.)

And that's one of the strongest games of the moment.